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TheHutts wrote: There's not so much Rebel stuff outside the movies - I can't think of much outside the Force Unleashed stuff, and pieces from the v-sets like Kyle Katarn Rebel Operative and the SpecForce guys. Yeah, the Rebels are the least-EU oriented faction, but I'd say that's primarily because the focus of the Rebel faction is the core 5 heroes (Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie, and Obi-Wan). Flipping through the minis, for WotC EU rebels, you've got: All the Bothans (Never appeared in the movies, only mentioned) Juno Eclipse Master Kota Vader's Apprentice, Redeemed Verpine Tech Dass Jennir Ferus Olin Jax Pavan Kota's (Elite) Militia Red Hand Trooper And that's really it.
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kezzamachine wrote:Bear in mind there is no EU without the movies, and that can never be the other way around... just saying... Lucas started with an idea, that he wrote down. his written version of "a galaxy far, far away" was made before the film. Maybe, if Lucas didn't optain funding for STAR WARS, he may have wrote a book first. the fact is that the majority of our knowledge of the STAR WARS GALAXY come from EU. therefore I beleive that the EU should have a fair representation in our SWM game.
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Luke in his stealth suit is from the EU.
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Less filling! Taste Great! Mac! PC! You got peanut butter in my chocolate!
Etc.
So, EU vs Movies really don't matter. It is Star Wars. In this game the only way to achieve balance is to beef up the EU because the Movies are limited but the scope. Also add in Lucas' constant meddling, the movies expand everytime they are released.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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After reading three pages worth of post I am left scratching my head.
As a design team member and being involved since the first one I know that designers try to keep the following items in mind when looking at characters to design. First they look at what the community wants. They look at what the game needs. They look at what they have interest in. Then they try to take all three of those and make a character.
I have looked over some of the arguments made. Why did we shoebox Grevious JH? Then I read a bit farther to a statement that says something along the line of it's ok to make bad pieces good even if it makes better pieces great. ugh... do you see what you just did? you left Grevious JH in the shoebox because it is a bad piece. Not too mention the community had been asking for a grevious that could kick a$$.
Next on the comment where a list of character are named that we should do. SPOILER ALERT over the next two sets 5 of those figures listed are going to appear. Why? Because we listen to the community.
If you are going to start throwing numbers out there please make sure they are correct. There have not been 4 bossk made. Only three and all by WOTC. On this subject we have done 4 set at 60 characters each that is 240 characters. Roughly half are uniques. So over 4 set we were able to do roughly 120 named pieces. Not everything can be unique, you have to have some fodder. Why hasn't there been a new Nien Numb? Well I think most the designers thought the community would rather see a character that does something then just drive the falcon around with Lando.
We do listen to criticism. I have big shoulder i can take it. if you don't like something I created that is fine with me. The next guy i talk to will.
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EmporerDragon wrote:TheHutts wrote: There's not so much Rebel stuff outside the movies - I can't think of much outside the Force Unleashed stuff, and pieces from the v-sets like Kyle Katarn Rebel Operative and the SpecForce guys. Yeah, the Rebels are the least-EU oriented faction, but I'd say that's primarily because the focus of the Rebel faction is the core 5 heroes (Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie, and Obi-Wan). Flipping through the minis, for WotC EU rebels, you've got: All the Bothans (Never appeared in the movies, only mentioned) Juno Eclipse Master Kota Vader's Apprentice, Redeemed Verpine Tech Dass Jennir Ferus Olin Jax Pavan Kota's (Elite) Militia Red Hand Trooper And that's really it. Also add these, not that it is here nor there; Deena Shan Elite Rebel Commando Bith Rebel Mon Calmari Tech Specialist Twi'lek Rebel Agent & Scout Wookiee Warrior Wookiee Soldier Wookiee Freedom Fighter Kazdan Paratus Garm Bel Iblis Shaak Ti, Jedi Master
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Well, biggest criticism for this set is Laranth Tarak. Call me a fan boy. Call me blind to balance. Heck, you can call me Al. But this piece was.... Nothing like the character. She was just like the piece she helps (Jax): dull.
For everything Embo became (all from mostly 1 ep), she became meh (from 3 books.)
I am just interested in the thought process behind this piece. Force-using gunslinging twi'leks don't pop up everyday.
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markedman247 wrote:Well, biggest criticism for this set is Laranth Tarak. Call me a fan boy. Call me blind to balance. Heck, you can call me Al. But this piece was.... Nothing like the character. She was just like the piece she helps (Jax): dull.
For everything Embo became (all from mostly 1 ep), she became meh (from 3 books.)
I am just interested in the thought process behind this piece. Force-using gunslinging twi'leks don't pop up everyday.
Embo isn't a "she".
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MaliciousCrumb wrote:markedman247 wrote:Well, biggest criticism for this set is Laranth Tarak. Call me a fan boy. Call me blind to balance. Heck, you can call me Al. But this piece was.... Nothing like the character. She was just like the piece she helps (Jax): dull.
For everything Embo became (all from mostly 1 ep), she became meh (from 3 books.)
I am just interested in the thought process behind this piece. Force-using gunslinging twi'leks don't pop up everyday.
Embo isn't a "she". Laranth Tarak is. His complaint is that Embo got a detailed figure from his basically 1 episode. Tarak had 3 books but got what he considers a boring figure.
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Correct. I think the mini representation was far removed from the character in the books. Her attack is low in a faction that has low numbers of attack boosters (leia being the most notable). Her force power, although nifty, felt like a missed opportunity. She was most notable for shooting blaster bolts. Yet, she is given a force version of accurate shot. I am just curious as to the thought process. I will suggest (my perceived) better version in the suggestions.
I love the fact she exists. The v-set group listened. I just wished she was more representative of the character.
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markedman247 wrote:Well, biggest criticism for this set is Laranth Tarak. Call me a fan boy. Fanboy Quote:Call me blind to balance. Blind to balance Quote: Heck, you can call me Al. Hi Al! (just kidding btw, being sarcastic) But this piece was.... Nothing like the character. She was just like the piece she helps (Jax): dull. For everything Embo became (all from mostly 1 ep), she became meh (from 3 books.) I am just interested in the thought process behind this piece. Force-using gunslinging twi'leks don't pop up everyday. [/quote] Valid points. Our goal with her was to make an inexpensive Twin Attacking Rebel with mid-range Rebel-ish stats (success!). I totally get that she isn't what people were expecting for her, at the time we thought that adding an inexpensive Unique Rebel gun would maybe sub-plant the stranglehold Crix and ERC's have on the Rebel cheap gun market. For 22 points I still think she is pretty good and will only get better as we continue to try and make rebels viable outside of Smug Commandos. Also as I've stated before we try hard to not make SA's that only 1 character will ever get (we make exceptions in some cases) the shooting blaster bolts thing we just made Evade, basically the same thing only she isn't spending force on it.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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I think one of the key problems with characters like Laranth is lack of visuals. Since she is only represented in novels and no other media, it can be harder to picture the character, and thus make her harder to design. Embo, on the other hand, you can just sit down, watch his hat-fu, and base a mini on what you saw.
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As far as Laranth goes. As designers we felt that she couldn't be better than Han (even though in canon she may have been). Han is and will always be the big Rebel shooter (thats what he did in the movies and that is how WOTC made him). And Han is still tier one. So if we make Laranth anywhere close to Han she could supplant him as the main rebel shooter. And as far as the designers for s+v were concerned that was not something we wanted to even contemplate. And yes we could have given her a crappy CE so that she couldn't have gotten some of the other CEs (specifically Leia). But she wasn't really a leader in any sense.
Actually the force power she has actually represents her shooting prowess quite well. She was extremely good with her blasters. She was so accurate that she could shoot down incoming blaster bolts. Logically doesn't that also make her so accurate that she could choose what she was shooting at on offense? We tried to incorporate her blaster defense but it ended up either as evade/Soresu Style/deflect/or reflect (same type of wording: avoid damage and maybe send it back). Granting evade let us do 2 things at once actually by incorporating her defensive prowess and make her less reliant on Reikken by having evade naturally.
In a vacuum by herself she has good offensive stats and good defensive stats and bunches of tricks. Who knows if she will replace the ERC or somebody else to see play on a regular basis. IMO she is a very solid piece with the potential for a whole lot more as there aren't very many shooters with twin and 20 base Damage (she had to have that with the twin DL44s she carried). Had we done much more with her, her cost would have shot up or her Damage would have had to drop to base 10 (neither of which we wanted to do).
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Weeks wrote:
Our goal with her was to make an inexpensive Twin Attacking Rebel with mid-range Rebel-ish stats (success!). I totally get that she isn't what people were expecting for her, at the time we thought that adding an inexpensive Unique Rebel gun would maybe sub-plant the stranglehold Crix and ERC's have on the Rebel cheap gun market. For 22 points I still think she is pretty good and will only get better as we continue to try and make rebels viable outside of Smug Commandos.
David,now I'm confused. Does the team look for a need in the SWM game, and then take a existing SW character to fit the stats they've imagined? as well as disregard some actual character abilities as stated in the source used? ie novel. I think many of us non-designers are quite clueless to the whole process, and would love to know more. "and knowing is half the battle" - GI JOE!
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urbanjedi wrote:As far as Laranth goes......................... Had we done much more with her, her cost would have shot up or her Damage would have had to drop to base 10 (neither of which we wanted to do).
why not increase the cost? plenty of precedent for high cost characters. not every SWM created has to be viable at the 200 point competitive level, does it? please remember I'm only asking Q??'s I realize I'd be in a mucho big pig wampa poodoo pile without v-sets, my favorite game would be terminal, with a large red DNR on it's charts
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Keep in mind, it isn't one answer. Each designer designs their own way, with their own views and bias.
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Sithborg wrote:Keep in mind, it isn't one answer. Each designer designs their own way, with their own views and bias. I understand, I guess I'm just a very curious jak.
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From the three pages of discussion for this piece.
Original concept
22 pts
HP 50 Def 17 Att 7 Dam 20 (DL-44 just like Han uses)
SA Twin Attack Evade
Force Powers Force 2 Concentrated fire (1 FP: For this character's next attack she can ignore cover when choosing targets and gains "single shot blaster")
22 pts
HP 50 Def 17 Att 9 Dam 20 (DL-44 just like Han uses)
SA Twin Attack Evade
Force Powers Force 2 Concentrated fire (2 FP: For this character's next attack she can ignore cover when choosing targets)
Laranth's prowess with her blasters is rumored to be unparalleled
22 pts HP 90 Def 17 Att 9 Dam 20 (DL-44 just like Han uses)
SA Twin Attack Evade loner Accurate
Force Powers Force 2 Concentrated fire (2 FP: For this character's next attack she can ignore cover when choosing targets)
27 pts HP 80 Def 17 Att 9 Dam 20 (DL-44 just like Han uses)
SA Twin Attack Evade Synergy (this character gets +4 to attack when within 6 squares of a character who's name contains Jax Pavin)
Force Powers Force 2 Concentrated fire (2 FP: For this character's next attack she can ignore cover when choosing targets)
23 pts
50 hp 16 def 7 att 20 dam
SA Twin Evade Synergy (+4 att when within 6 of a character who counts as Jax Pavan)
FP 2 Concentrated Firepower (usable on this characters turn: This character ignores cover when choosing targets)
Laranth Tarak 22
60 Hit Points 16 Defense 9 Attack 20 Damage
Unique Agile Evade Affinity (Jax Pavin)
Force 2 Focused Attack
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First and foremost, thank you to the designers for discussing Laranth. In looking at the Proto-stats, I'm amazed only evade was made for her. I will admit there would be problems in creating a force power that does a Range 6 "evade" as this would increase the problematic nature of the Reiken reliance. Outside of a force ability that grants within 6 Evade (ex. Force Interception, a name that could be used for the abstraction of tossing debris in the air at the minimum), thus ensuring having Rieken being an option instead of a crutch. Force-based Evade could allow a faction from being nuked by B$%#*-stilla when she pops her "Powerful Meditation Superpower" but still limited to a range.
That is predominantly my issue. Just that she's lacking a team-helping defensive abilities.
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jak wrote:Weeks wrote:
Our goal with her was to make an inexpensive Twin Attacking Rebel with mid-range Rebel-ish stats (success!). I totally get that she isn't what people were expecting for her, at the time we thought that adding an inexpensive Unique Rebel gun would maybe sub-plant the stranglehold Crix and ERC's have on the Rebel cheap gun market. For 22 points I still think she is pretty good and will only get better as we continue to try and make rebels viable outside of Smug Commandos.
David,now I'm confused. Does the team look for a need in the SWM game, and then take a existing SW character to fit the stats they've imagined? as well as disregard some actual character abilities as stated in the source used? ie novel. I think many of us non-designers are quite clueless to the whole process, and would love to know more. "and knowing is half the battle" - GI JOE! We looked at the character and tried to apply her to what we felt was a missing part of the faction. As jason stated earlier, we don't want her to replace Han Solo. Han Solo is the rebels (and Star Wars for that matter) to me. I didn't think she should be better then him in any way so we made her inexpensive and useful. I mean come on guys, name another piece that costs 25 points, can shoot, has a base 9 attack with Twin. Dash (who costs 28 and is undercosted) can do more attacks, but only at a better rate half the time, and he doesn't have an accurate shot power or force points. I just don't get the hate this piece has caused. I figured people would like having an inexpensive Unique rebel gun with decent stats.
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