so...i just found this thread. and would like to say some things on my behalf. yes i did look at his cards before the game, but mostly was looking at things i wasnt familiar with like palleon and trying to figure out how those peices would counter things like gowk. neither one of us realized that lobot was there amoungst his cards until we rolled initiative for round 2. from what i understood he just wanted to put him on the board somewhere in his starting area and just say he had done nothing. this wouldnt have been detrimental to him in any way as most of his peices were still right next to the starting area. once we started playing i tend to just focus on whats in front of me and that meant his peices. i was trying to trade my r2 for his r7 (which i would have gotten a line of sight with, with both jango and missiles girl. i moved jango out of the way to get whats her name to the same spot. i was hoping he wouldnt see r2 for the 2 activations until i could go again. (or not ruin the shot which he ended up doing by moving something else up). at worse i was hoping to trade door control for door control. this was also the second game of the day. since we were paired up we both probably had previous 3 point wins. when we noticed it wasnt on the board tim asked if he could just put him on the board. i said "lets call the judge". im not sure what rules you SWM Gamers have for this situation. I know (and i also know this doesnt seem to matter) that in DCI and WotC minis rules, you have to rewind to find a proper game state (this would mean all starting peices where they started at the beginning of round 1), or the peices would stay off the board. i dont receive any points for having defeated them either and tim gets a warning about improper warband building or something. now when the judge came over i didnt try to convince him of anything (as again i dont know what you guys do in this situation.) i was then asked if i would be fine if tim got to put his peices on the board and we would just keep playing as if nothing happened. at this point i did say no. this would give my opponent a huge advantage over me, at no cost to himself. in a friendly game i wouldnt care so much. i might needle you a bit, but would let you do it. for $500 dollars however i would like to see the rules enforced. if the option to reset had been presented i would have taken it. we could have wiped the board. however i dont recall that being mentioned. it was said after we played the game and i said then that i would have taken it. there is also a reason i may have been a bit curt with tim. when we initially rolled for map. tim won. looked at both maps. and conceeded me to pick. i picked my map, he looked at it and decided to play on his map instead. because i try to be a nice guy and not a dick to everyone i meet (despite what weeks thinks). i let it slide. my map would have given me a pretty significant advantage on him and he had even said he liked it as well (not that i had ever played on the map, but i wasnt going to tell him that). so i had already let something big like him taking back a conceding map roll, without anything being done. i figured i had already done him something really nice that hurt my chances of winning. i didnt really want to give him a second. when given the chance to be a nice guy AGAIN i didnt. if we had reset the game may have gone differently....but probably not. tim had the better band then the one i put together that morning while everyone else was asleep, and played it pretty blasted well.

i would like to note that i dont take things back in serious events like this. i dont even ask for it. i just move along. i also tend to give everyone at least one big freebie (bronson might be able to back me up on this b/c i also went to him on 2 other games (my first and last), to ask about how competetive i should play those 2). i ended up winning both games but they were alot tougher on me b/c i let my opponents take stuff back.

i also laugh at everytime david feels like bad mouthing me. pots can call kettles black, but i hope they have a mirror. for instance not giving something to someone that they paid for because you dont like them? thats a dick move. not letting your opponent take back multiple things in a $500 tournament...not so much in my book.

tim also said at the time he was happy that the peices came off so that way when he beat me, i would have no cause for complaint about it. i dont. he beat me at a disadvantage and for that gets my kudos. i think it was the best result overall b/c if i had won, they we would have both wondered if it was because i wouldnt let him put his peices back on the board. then again if we had played with my map after he conceeded it to me, it may have also been a different game too. starting over is also something i would have agreed to. and for blasted sure i would have played a smarter game and not let r2 die so quickly.

and sorry for such long posts. i do tend to ramble on when trying to explain things and tend to do it alot when i do make comments.

i also feel bad for putting bronson in such a bad spot. i know he probably wishes we could have just resolved it ourselves and so wouldnt have to choose for or against any particular person. i think the solution he chose was the one that didnt favor either opponent. true - tim didnt get to add lobot, but neither did i get points for him either.

For what it's worth, you don't really get any credit for this, because conceding map choice is not an option. Tim might have said something along the lines of "I dunno, which map would you pick?" which would make it seem like he was conceding the choice, but was really just asking your opinion. On the other hand, Tim might have been unaware that you can't concede map choice since you CAN concede setup. Either way, if you had called the judge over and complained that Tim said you could pick map and then changed his mind, the judge should have ruled against you and said that since Tim won the map roll, Tim MUST choose the map. He can ask you what you think of the maps, or what you would pick if you had won, or anything like that, but he gets the final choice no matter what.

At best, Tim said something that was misconstrued by you as "conceding map choice". Worse off would be if Tim genuinely didn't know/forgot the rule and tried to concede the map choice. At worst would be if Tim knew that he would get the map choice no matter what, actually said the he was conceding the map choice to you, then reneged on that, knowing that if it came to it the rules said that he would get the map choice. In the first case you're just mistaken (it happens, but you don't get morality points for it), in the second case Tim was just mistaken (it happens, he doesn't necessarily lose morality points), in the third case Tim was being sneaky and probably trying to cheat (Tim loses morality points). I think that it's much more likely that it was one of the first two cases, where there was a misunderstanding somewhere in there, what with both people involved being human and all.

My point is that in any case, you don't get to be the sympathetic figure in that specific case. Most likely it was a misunderstanding by one or both players.

The real lesson is to know your floor rules before going to tournaments! Read them here: http://www.swmresources.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=253

(I just noticed that PDF hasn't been updated with the new map list... I'll have to see if I can find a newer PDF with the updated list...)

if i recall correctly you asked what map i was using. and i said cantina. you said that map also works well for you band due to all of the cover. i think you were thinking with cad/arica and flight it might be pretty advantageous to you. you said (again if i recall correctly) "whatever map you choose". i picked mine, and at that point you looked back at some of my stuff and then decided to go with your map instead. since the game state hadnt changed at all (and you did win map choice), it wasnt too big a deal to me. at that point calling over a judge would have been kind of a dick thing to do, as its so easy to fix and didnt do anything to the match.

and as to the not being able to concede map roll; really? in ddm it can actually be advantageous to do so, not so much in SWM b/c even if the other person picks map. the other guy still has to set up first. its one of several things i dont like about map rolls now. if both players have the same map, then you would want to lose the map roll, because you are stuck choosing the same map anyway. i had no idea that you werent "allowed" to let your opponent choose map if you win the roll. i may also be misconstrueing the fact that he said "whatever you choose" as conceeding the map roll. to me that would be effectively the same thing, but could be taken different ways. (and i definitely dont think he was trying to be sneaky about map roll. in fact neither one of us were going for sneaky advantages, more like a couple of miscommunications + mistakes). in a friendly game none of this would have been a big deal. in a big money tourney it becomes so. kind of like the difference b/w playing friendly poker and playing for semi-serious money.

OOOHHHH GOSH!!!!!!

So much complaining , so much arguing. Can we all not just get along with out name calling? I'm so sad by the disgraceful turn this thread has went, and the lack of conviction that has been showed, that with my powers as a MOD, I am now locking this thread. I didn't want to, but you guys leave me no choice.

Maybe next time, you kids can share your toys and play nice with each other.

The Prophet

Fantastic point. There is nothing wrong with these types of arguments. This was a high level event and I think it's great to see this level of competitive passion. I would agree name calling is out of line, but for the most part I have no issues with this. This was so common back on the wotc boards back in the day that perhaps I'm jaded. But we aren't perfect, and people get butt hurt sometimes in this game. I only expect good things come Minis Mania III, it's nice to see people get riled up. There's nothing wrong with that.

Remember when that joker got so worked up losing a match that he flushed his Aurra Sing down the toilet? Now that's passion.