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Sithborg wrote:Yes you do. Some of your Mice/Uggies will cost points when defeated, some won't. Trust me, people do build with Mice/Uggies in their base squad.
You are adding, at most, one more layer of bookeeping. If such issues are difficult, then you should not be playing those types of pieces. If you do not have an easy way to keep track, then the issue is with the player, not designers.
Again, there are valid complaints. Quoreal is one, sure. But imo, extremely minor, when compared to a lot others. How many people are having issues with Caedus/Malgus? oh and about cadeus malgus all of new york is having problems with it considering it just won the regional there.   but i guess it is still not that good.....  yet again another TN prediction comes true.  there has been a prophet sighting in western new york this evening and he is claiming that malgus/cadeus is much better then prievously thought to be. -------with much love prophet number 2
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shmi15 wrote:I have read all the arguments... And I will stand by m observation.
1. Vong abilitie are coming out way to fast, and way to much... for example..
-Master Shaper, great ability, and usually very easy to remember who has it... BUT you DO have keep track of it.
-Supreme Overlord Shimra's ce... Not a popular piece... But if he did... You would have to keep track of how man have died so you know their attack bonus
-Voxn with stunnig Screech... Can anyone tell me honestly what it does without looking?
-The War Cordinator... Another fairly easy piece to grasp..But the slight difference in it Extending SA ONLY to YV characters while extending of ALL characters is a slight inconvenience.
-Scarfication is cool and thematic... But try adding up that bonus with all the other options in under 10seconds before attacking... And then the CE that is tossed in on Jakan... Is only available once per round... Another thing to keep track of
-Nos Choka increases their speed by 2 basically
-How many people know the wording/limtations of Droid Fanaticsm?
-Prefect Dea Gara has so much jumbled stuff that its just crazy
-Created Puppet Master.... Cool ability.. But necessary?
-Coral Implants... Another thing to keep track of
-Plasma Eel... Again, why?
-Magma Pebble.. now I have to keep track if the enemy is on fire?
-Bo'tous Spore.... Another ability I doubt many people know without reading, and wil slow a game down.
-The Domain Shai gives CF to followers while ALSO granting Double to a Specific YV Group
- Neural Mapping... Great Ability... That again...Slows the game down.. I.E. .. Cad Bane is nw YV, so now he gains,Scarificaton, SHaper, Maybe Cunning, Poison also... (I know not all is reasonable but itsthere now.
- Nei Rin is (and I'm sorry to say this) a complicated piece.. Shaper... Rapport... Vonduun Crab Shaper... Vong Heritage....AND his CE.... Good luck to anyone playing him and not asking for his card MULTIPLE times.
-Supreme Overlord Quorreal... Loyal Followers, again, guess this one without looking it up, Gotta Keep track of that also while trying to remember his CE... And knowing whether or not its active..
I give the designers props for getting this faction off the ground... But at this rate, we will need to increase the game length to 1 hour and 15 minutes! Just to account for people asking about the abilities and trying t remember everything they get!
Its slow play now..And I feel the more we try to build them to tier 1,the slower the games will be(assuming more thematic abilities are created to do this)
A huge portion of this list see zero play in competitive settings. Until you can put together a reasonable list of SA's and CE's that would be found on a competitive Vong squad I think your point is rendered moot.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:Sithborg wrote:Yes you do. Some of your Mice/Uggies will cost points when defeated, some won't. Trust me, people do build with Mice/Uggies in their base squad.
You are adding, at most, one more layer of bookeeping. If such issues are difficult, then you should not be playing those types of pieces. If you do not have an easy way to keep track, then the issue is with the player, not designers.
Again, there are valid complaints. Quoreal is one, sure. But imo, extremely minor, when compared to a lot others. How many people are having issues with Caedus/Malgus? oh and about cadeus malgus all of new york is having problems with it considering it just won the regional there. but i guess it is still not that good..... yet again another TN prediction comes true. there has been a prophet sighting in western new york this evening and he is claiming that malgus/cadeus is much better then prievously thought to be. -------with much love prophet number 2 This is the same as the Mace argument from last year. While its possible that someone may have claimed that Malgus/Caedus wouldn't win a competitive regional or tourney I think people admitted from day 1 that they were a powerful combo. You can run around patting yourselves on the back following todays win if you feel it justifies everything you say and believe. What I love about the current meta is that there is such a wide swath of squad types and factions that have won tournaments whether its a straight WotC build, a classic stealth and blue, a DotF staple, or whatever flavor of the day squad that you put your marbles behind. All I see is variety and fun. If you guys relish the complaint and argumentative spirit suit yourself.
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Galactic Funk wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:[quote=Sithborg]Yes you do. Some of your Mice/Uggies will cost points when defeated, some won't. Trust me, people do build with Mice/Uggies in their base squad. You are adding, at most, one more layer of bookeeping. If such issues are difficult, then you should not be playing those types of pieces. If you do not have an easy way to keep track, then the issue is with the player, not designers. Again, there are valid complaints. Quoreal is one, sure. But imo, extremely minor, when compared to a lot others. How many people are having issues with Caedus/Malgus?[/quote] oh and about cadeus malgus all of new york is having problems with it considering it just won the regional there. but i guess it is still not that good..... yet again another TN prediction comes true. there has been a prophet sighting in western new york this evening and he is claiming that malgus/cadeus is much better then prievously thought to be. -------with much love prophet number 2 This is the same as the Mace argument from last year. While its possible that someone may have claimed that Malgus/Caedus wouldn't win a competitive regional or tourney I think people admitted from day 1 that they were a powerful combo. You can run around patting yourselves on the back following todays win if you feel it justifies everything you say and believe. What I love about the current meta is that there is such a wide swath of squad types and factions that have won tournaments whether its a straight WotC build, a classic stealth and blue, a DotF staple, or whatever flavor of the day squad that you put your marbles behind. All I see is variety and fun. If you guys relish the complaint and argumentative spirit suit yourself. I agree with you 100% I love the meta right now and I love where minis currently stands, I actually had a huge part in the playtesting of set 6 and love to contribute to the game. But in the end he brought up cadeus/malgus not me and i just wanted to have some fun with it lol.
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I love how I get grouped into everything,lol. @Galactic Funk
Anyways,before some OTHER people try to steer this conversation off topic (can we just get his comments removed (and any others) since they don't per tain to the topic at hand please and thank you)
But, I think instead of arguing, I will just make a poll... and see if I am in the minority or if the designers are correct.
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shmi15 wrote:I love how I get grouped into everything,lol. @Galactic Funk
Anyways,before some OTHER people try to steer this conversation off topic (can we just get his comments removed (and any others) since they don't per tain to the topic at hand please and thank you)
But, I think instead of arguing, I will just make a poll... and see if I am in the minority or if the designers are correct. Fine with me. Pull DB's comment at the same time as he took it off topic to begin with. But instead of creating a poll why don't you just respond to my other post challenging you to post a Vong squad that you could reasonably see at a tourney that is way to whacked out on confusing SA's and CE's. If you can't prove it for that type of setting (which is the only case where time is really important) then your argument is rendered moot. Slow games are only a problem when you are on a strict 1 hour clock. Besides, if a Vong player shows up at a tournament they had better be able to run their squad effectively enough to get 3 point wins multiple times in a day if they want to compete. If they can't do it then that primarily hurts themselves. So post away and prove your point.
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Galactic Funk wrote:shmi15 wrote:I love how I get grouped into everything,lol. @Galactic Funk
Anyways,before some OTHER people try to steer this conversation off topic (can we just get his comments removed (and any others) since they don't per tain to the topic at hand please and thank you)
But, I think instead of arguing, I will just make a poll... and see if I am in the minority or if the designers are correct. Fine with me. Pull DB's comment at the same time as he took it off topic to begin with. But instead of creating a poll why don't you just respond to my other post challenging you to post a Vong squad that you could reasonably see at a tourney that is way to whacked out on confusing SA's and CE's. If you can't prove it for that type of setting (which is the only case where time is really important) then your argument is rendered moot. Slow games are only a problem when you are on a strict 1 hour clock. Besides, if a Vong player shows up at a tournament they had better be able to run their squad effectively enough to get 3 point wins multiple times in a day if they want to compete. If they can't do it then that primarily hurts themselves. So post away and prove your point. when did I pull it off topic? and to the 3 point win thing, I say see one of Tim B's posts about how 3 point wins are becoming more and more rare, so not being able to get all 3point wins wont hurt as much as it it used to. as far as making a competitive vong squad that is tricky you will actually see.... I doubt you could because no one is running them enough to find out what is the top vong squad in my opinion. the best one I could come up with is: --Hunted or Hunters-- 54 Cad Bane 34 Nom Anor 30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal 19 Yomin Carr 15 Yammosk War Coordinator 8 R7 Astromech Droid 10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2 28 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x7 not really all that much to worry about in this squad, other then keeping track of which workers will have loyal followers from quorreal. maybe this squad would be better to get his point across: 37 Prefect Da'Gara 34 Nom Anor 30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal 27 Lobot 19 Yomin Carr 15 Yammosk War Coordinator 10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2 28 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x7
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Deaths_Baine wrote:Galactic Funk wrote:shmi15 wrote:I love how I get grouped into everything,lol. @Galactic Funk
Anyways,before some OTHER people try to steer this conversation off topic (can we just get his comments removed (and any others) since they don't per tain to the topic at hand please and thank you)
But, I think instead of arguing, I will just make a poll... and see if I am in the minority or if the designers are correct. Fine with me. Pull DB's comment at the same time as he took it off topic to begin with. But instead of creating a poll why don't you just respond to my other post challenging you to post a Vong squad that you could reasonably see at a tourney that is way to whacked out on confusing SA's and CE's. If you can't prove it for that type of setting (which is the only case where time is really important) then your argument is rendered moot. Slow games are only a problem when you are on a strict 1 hour clock. Besides, if a Vong player shows up at a tournament they had better be able to run their squad effectively enough to get 3 point wins multiple times in a day if they want to compete. If they can't do it then that primarily hurts themselves. So post away and prove your point. when did I pull it off topic? and to the 3 point win thing, I say see one of Tim B's posts about how 3 point wins are becoming more and more rare, so not being able to get all 3point wins wont hurt as much as it it used to. as far as making a competitive vong squad that is tricky you will actually see.... I doubt you could because no one is running them enough to find out what is the top vong squad in my opinion. the best one I could come up with is: --Hunted or Hunters-- 54 Cad Bane 34 Nom Anor 30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal 19 Yomin Carr 15 Yammosk War Coordinator 8 R7 Astromech Droid 10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2 28 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x7 not really all that much to worry about in this squad, other then keeping track of which workers will have loyal followers from quorreal. maybe this squad would be better to get his point across: 37 Prefect Da'Gara 34 Nom Anor 30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal 27 Lobot 19 Yomin Carr 15 Yammosk War Coordinator 10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2 28 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x7 I don't think that second squad has what it takes to be that competitive though as there isn't a big damage dealer in there. Aside from that its not too confusing at all. You will have Reinforcements from Lobot (those will be obvious), Da'Gara and Quoreal. Quoreal's will have Loyal Followers so you will mark those bases differently than Da'Gara's. If Da'Gara gets reserves you probably won't need to mark those characters since they will count for points just like in your initial build. With a squad like that you have totally set yourself up for slower play because its mass activations + activation control. No big damage dealer means you have to whittle away at every squad you face whether its piece by piece against against another high activation squad or trying to wear down the big beats. Trying to spit poison people and use an MTB to set off bombs isn't nearly as good without someone like Cad to cleanup.
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Galactic Funk wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:Galactic Funk wrote:shmi15 wrote:I love how I get grouped into everything,lol. @Galactic Funk
Anyways,before some OTHER people try to steer this conversation off topic (can we just get his comments removed (and any others) since they don't per tain to the topic at hand please and thank you)
But, I think instead of arguing, I will just make a poll... and see if I am in the minority or if the designers are correct. Fine with me. Pull DB's comment at the same time as he took it off topic to begin with. But instead of creating a poll why don't you just respond to my other post challenging you to post a Vong squad that you could reasonably see at a tourney that is way to whacked out on confusing SA's and CE's. If you can't prove it for that type of setting (which is the only case where time is really important) then your argument is rendered moot. Slow games are only a problem when you are on a strict 1 hour clock. Besides, if a Vong player shows up at a tournament they had better be able to run their squad effectively enough to get 3 point wins multiple times in a day if they want to compete. If they can't do it then that primarily hurts themselves. So post away and prove your point. when did I pull it off topic? and to the 3 point win thing, I say see one of Tim B's posts about how 3 point wins are becoming more and more rare, so not being able to get all 3point wins wont hurt as much as it it used to. as far as making a competitive vong squad that is tricky you will actually see.... I doubt you could because no one is running them enough to find out what is the top vong squad in my opinion. the best one I could come up with is: --Hunted or Hunters-- 54 Cad Bane 34 Nom Anor 30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal 19 Yomin Carr 15 Yammosk War Coordinator 8 R7 Astromech Droid 10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2 28 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x7 not really all that much to worry about in this squad, other then keeping track of which workers will have loyal followers from quorreal. maybe this squad would be better to get his point across: 37 Prefect Da'Gara 34 Nom Anor 30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal 27 Lobot 19 Yomin Carr 15 Yammosk War Coordinator 10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2 28 Yuuzhan Vong Worker x7 I don't think that second squad has what it takes to be that competitive though as there isn't a big damage dealer in there. Aside from that its not too confusing at all. You will have Reinforcements from Lobot (those will be obvious), Da'Gara and Quoreal. Quoreal's will have Loyal Followers so you will mark those bases differently than Da'Gara's. If Da'Gara gets reserves you probably won't need to mark those characters since they will count for points just like in your initial build. With a squad like that you have totally set yourself up for slower play because its mass activations + activation control. No big damage dealer means you have to whittle away at every squad you face whether its piece by piece against against another high activation squad or trying to wear down the big beats. Trying to spit poison people and use an MTB to set off bombs isn't nearly as good without someone like Cad to cleanup. and I agree with you, just trying to do what you asked of shmi and that is what I could come up with. I feel like the first squad I posted would b very competitive, but I must admit not much in the way of confusing in that squad. I will try to make a different squad that may be more to what he is referring to.
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--Fanatical Hunter--
30 Shedao Shai
27 Nen Yim
20 Yuuzhan Vong Hunter on Quednak
38 Yun-Yammka Fanatic x2
18 Praetorite Vong Priest
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
28 Yuuzhan Vong Hunter x2
8 R7 Astromech Droid
10 Zonoma Sekot Scout x2
6 Mouse Droid x2
maybe something a little more like this. with master shaper, shaper, scarification, embrace of pain. with droid Fanaticism. still not sure about how hard it would be to keep track of.
Personally though I feel like most people are missing Shmi's point. I think he was trying to point out the amount of new abilities in Vong has skyrocketed (don't think it is a problem yet) and that if it continues in every set like it has been that the faction will be to complicated to be worth playing. Like you said previously it is our ignorance to the abilities and not the abilities themselves that are making them complicated, well when new special abilities and commander effects are being created solely for this faction they will remain unplayed and a slow faction to learn because no one runs them and everything is new.
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Honestly I don't think that example proves the point either. Shaper and Scarification are WotC designed abilities that have been around for a LONG time. The only new stuff is Master Sharper and Embrace of Pain which have been around for over 2 years now. So everybody gets a straight +10 damage from Shaper, Shedao Shai in all likelihood gets the Master Sharper (or else the Quednak) so add another +10 damage to that character and whoever is wounded gets a +4 att +10 damage.
Embrace of Pain is also used for the two v-set Jacen Solo's in addition to select Vong and should be very familiar to most players who use v-sets. And on a side note Embrace of Pain is one of the best new abilities created by v-set designers given the flavor from source material and how it works.
Droid Fanatacism is just like savage but towards droids that can deal damage (generally speaking). That one is more of a hindrance to the user more than anything else but they do have Charging Assault so that helps.
I do understand what Shmi is trying to say, I just disagree. And I think starting a poll to get the opinion of a wide group of people is probably a poor way to make your point. You have people who have posted saying they have never used a v-set piece. That's akin to someone playing during the Rebel Storm or Clone Strike Era coming back to the game during the Dark Times era and trying to learn all of the new things that had come out like Swap, Levitation, GMA, etc. Yes, I imagine that would be a touch overwhelming. That's simply not a good way to make your case.
If you don't play with or against Vong enough and don't get everything that's cool but I see a difference between making an argument that there is too much new stuff and where the reality lies with regard to how they play in the meta in terms of speed or confusion.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:Sithborg wrote:Yes you do. Some of your Mice/Uggies will cost points when defeated, some won't. Trust me, people do build with Mice/Uggies in their base squad.
You are adding, at most, one more layer of bookeeping. If such issues are difficult, then you should not be playing those types of pieces. If you do not have an easy way to keep track, then the issue is with the player, not designers.
Again, there are valid complaints. Quoreal is one, sure. But imo, extremely minor, when compared to a lot others. How many people are having issues with Caedus/Malgus? oh and about cadeus malgus all of new york is having problems with it considering it just won the regional there. but i guess it is still not that good..... yet again another TN prediction comes true. there has been a prophet sighting in western new york this evening and he is claiming that malgus/cadeus is much better then prievously thought to be. -------with much love prophet number 2 Good job on completely missing the point of my post (this is where you took it off topic, by completely switching gears about how competitive Sith pieces). Complexity does not equal good or not for competitive play. See Bombad Gungan. While there are some complex things for the Vong, they all pale when compared to other pieces/factions. See Force Abilities. Why is Vong complex, when you have to keep track of who has gained what ability with Versatility or Camaderie or Force Meld or 2 or more CEs. Keeping track of this is part of your responsibility of playing that type of squad.
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I do think the Yammosk can be quite complex, partly because it's one of those War Coordinator is one of those abilities where it's absolutely crucial to read the glossary as well as the card. But it's also the one Vong piece that's an auto-include, so you should be familiar with it.
On Saturday we had some local games, and one local player was using the Yammosk to steal Caedus's CE, which only applies to Galactic Alliance pieces. It probably altered the course of the entire game, as the other player took him at his word, and I only picked it up when I wandered over to watch their game when mine was finished. I'm sure situations like that happen with the Yammosk sometimes.
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If I were to guess why the Yammosk didn't work in that instance, would it be because of the Telepathic Insight ability? It says all named piece instances become instances that now refer to the War Coordinator.
Does the "Galactic Alliance" part mean Caedus' CE now targets only the War Coordinator? Or is that part a faction-only effect, which would allow the War Coordinator to spread the benefit? Or is it in some gray area that the War Coordinator's SA doesn't cover?
I'd like to know so I don't screw it up in the future :)
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DonStamos wrote:If I were to guess why the Yammosk didn't work in that instance, would it be because of the Telepathic Insight ability? It says all named piece instances become instances that now refer to the War Coordinator.
Does the "Galactic Alliance" part mean Caedus' CE now targets only the War Coordinator? Or is that part a faction-only effect, which would allow the War Coordinator to spread the benefit? Or is it in some gray area that the War Coordinator's SA doesn't cover?
I'd like to know so I don't screw it up in the future :) My guess would be that Galactic Alliance isn't a faction, thus no interaction with Vong.
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In the glossary it says any commander effects and any faction specific effects become YV specific. So I'm not sure but I think Caduses' CE might work.
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Joseph blob wrote:In the glossary it says any commander effects and any faction specific effects become YV specific. So I'm not sure but I think Caduses' CE might work. Can the YV gain Caedus' CE ? Yes. Does it become faction specific? No, unless someone with Galactic Alliance is in the Vong faction.
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Whaa?
I thought faction specific meant if the CE said "all New Republic/Imperial/etc allies/followers gain [insert something" or something like that.
I figured the Galactic Alliance stuff miiiiight be a gray area there, since all the Galactic Alliance stuff was New Republic, so I wasn't sure if that made the Galactic Alliance part of Caedus' CE faction specific.
The wording on my question is tricky, so I may not be asking it right :-[
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The way I've always understood it is when you take a CE you just replace any faction name with Yuuzhan Vong. So if you're playing against the Mandalorian Captain and take his CE, you get to change "Mandalorian followers within 6 squares gain Twin Attack" into "Yuuzhan Vong followers within 6 squares gain Twin Attack".
But with Caedus' CE, "Followers whose names contain Galactic Alliance within 6 squares get +3 Attack and +3 Defense." - there's no faction name to change and the CE stays the same for the Yammosk, so it still only applies to followers whose name contains Galactic Alliance.
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That makes sense, of course :-P
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