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GOWK, the answer. Options
awesome
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 9:46:04 AM
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krux wrote:
I mean Yoda is very very good but he's not as powerful as GOWK because he doesn't have the Soresu Mastery/MOTF2. Some good shooters could cause Yoda some problems, that's why i would prefer play another faction (NR and Rebels have Evade + FPs to reroll...and mobile push is fun). But Yoda is more an offensive piece than GOWK (Ataru/Throw) so it's great for the game. Only Kruhk really sux. PS: R2-D2 Astromech Droid should be banned too : Tow Cable is too powerful LoL



but he doesnt suck hes suppost to be the dulled down GOWK
twinjedi
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 9:58:38 AM
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krux wrote:
I mean Yoda is very very good but he's not as powerful as GOWK because he doesn't have the Soresu Mastery/MOTF2. Some good shooters could cause Yoda some problems, that's why i would prefer play another faction (NR and Rebels have Evade + FPs to reroll...and mobile push is fun). But Yoda is more an offensive piece than GOWK (Ataru/Throw) so it's great for the game. Only Kruhk really sux. PS: R2-D2 Astromech Droid should be banned too : Tow Cable is too powerful LoL



whats wrong with u, Mad I think u should look at these characters more closely,cuz u don't have very good opinions about these people, and besides, Yoda has always been better then Obi-Wan and he always will be.Wink
Uggie Demo
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:02:04 AM
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RannKonnar wrote:

Hes SO easy to kill!

Ok, I have to agree with Dean, he is not "SO easy to kill" next time I play you I'm playing Gowk, then we will see if he is
"SO easy to kill".
awesome
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:27:54 AM
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well one on one plagueis is better and makes it "easy to kill" because in 3 turns GOWK is dead but other than that, what makes him hard to kill is what you can put with him, and republic has the cheapest ones like R2-Astromech, Rex, etc.

sure he can die, just not easily, I killed off all of this one squad and than he moved GOWK over to my team and well he spent 16 FP's by the time he died and he alone got my TBSV down to 10, Kyle JBM down to 10, wedge down to 30 and Boba Merc was at full for the finishing blow.
zerg
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:37:22 AM
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defender390 wrote:
I have generally stayed out of the discussions about General Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I would like to put my two cents in. To start out, I do not like to play competitively and I do not play on Vassal. I have pondered Kenobi for a while, and I came to these conclusions.

1. The problem with Kenobi is not necessarily just him, it is also his support. Kenobi made the plethera of good pieces in the Republic amazing. For example, if a piece with the exact same stats were made for the Old Republic, I doubt there would be many complaints over him. By the time the Old Republic got the support necessary to abuse the commander effect, the Meta would have moved on.
2. The issue is not the difficulty of beating a Kenobi squad, it is the variety in tournament formats. Kenobi is undeniably excellent piece and the purpose of a tournament is to win, obviously. This severely limits the squads you will face to Kenobi squads, Kenobi counter squads, and squads that counter the counters. This severly limits what you can pick from and expect to win. I assume it is not very fun facing slight variations of the same squads all day long.
3. Kenobi will not be banned forever. Competitive play simply needs to catch up to him. It may take one or two more sets, but we will see him again. By then, people will have new great pieces to play and Kenobi will no longer be in a league of his own.

In conclusion, Kenobi is not unbeatable. I am not in favor of banning, but he simply makes the game boring. This is for the good of the game, we simply need to hope that this does not open the floodgates to other bannings (which I sincerely doubt). I realize many of these things have already been pointed out, I simply wanted to give my own opinion.

P.S. - As I said, I do not play competitively, but I know some people who do. Back around Clone Strike, I could have sworn Aurra Sing was banned. Was this a gentleman's agreement, or official?


Totally agreed
awesome
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:06:17 PM
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defender390 wrote:
I have generally stayed out of the discussions about General Obi-Wan Kenobi, but I would like to put my two cents in. To start out, I do not like to play competitively and I do not play on Vassal. I have pondered Kenobi for a while, and I came to these conclusions.

1. The problem with Kenobi is not necessarily just him, it is also his support. Kenobi made the plethera of good pieces in the Republic amazing. For example, if a piece with the exact same stats were made for the Old Republic, I doubt there would be many complaints over him. By the time the Old Republic got the support necessary to abuse the commander effect, the Meta would have moved on.
2. The issue is not the difficulty of beating a Kenobi squad, it is the variety in tournament formats. Kenobi is undeniably excellent piece and the purpose of a tournament is to win, obviously. This severely limits the squads you will face to Kenobi squads, Kenobi counter squads, and squads that counter the counters. This severly limits what you can pick from and expect to win. I assume it is not very fun facing slight variations of the same squads all day long.
3. Kenobi will not be banned forever. Competitive play simply needs to catch up to him. It may take one or two more sets, but we will see him again. By then, people will have new great pieces to play and Kenobi will no longer be in a league of his own.

In conclusion, Kenobi is not unbeatable. I am not in favor of banning, but he simply makes the game boring. This is for the good of the game, we simply need to hope that this does not open the floodgates to other bannings (which I sincerely doubt). I realize many of these things have already been pointed out, I simply wanted to give my own opinion.

P.S. - As I said, I do not play competitively, but I know some people who do. Back around Clone Strike, I could have sworn Aurra Sing was banned. Was this a gentleman's agreement, or official?


actually I think rather than Aurra I think it was Maul :)
defender390
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:29:32 PM
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Oh, by the way, someone had to say something about the abundance of threads about General Obi-Wan Kenobi. Be it here or elsewhere...

Boba Fettuccine
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:36:19 PM
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swmimperial130 wrote:
Yes. And, if he gets close enough, Count Dooku of Serenno. In the rules book it states "When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11. Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, and Niman Styles (including style mastery) cannot be used against this character.


Indeed. Then when Rex and Dash show their faces, Dooku eats blaster for 80 damage and 40-80 damage (Depending on whether or not Dooku has activated), respectively. He has no way to block non-melee. There is no way any player would let Dooku base GOWK.
swmimperial130
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:39:52 PM
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Boba Fettuccine wrote:
swmimperial130 wrote:
Yes. And, if he gets close enough, Count Dooku of Serenno. In the rules book it states "When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11. Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, and Niman Styles (including style mastery) cannot be used against this character.


Indeed. Then when Rex and Dash show their faces, Dooku eats blaster for 80 damage and 40-80 damage (Depending on whether or not Dooku has activated), respectively. He has no way to block non-melee. There is no way any player would let Dooku base GOWK.

That's why you let your support (hopefully strong) kill their support.
Boba Fettuccine
Posted: Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:25:36 PM
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swmimperial130 wrote:
That's why you let your support (hopefully strong) kill their support.


I wish it were a simple as that. Rex and Dash both have Greater Mobile, so even getting them in your sights is hard work. There are not really any good shooters for the seps (unless paired with GGDAC, even then they aren't that good). The best you can hope for is to have a Dash of your own. I find Jango Bounty Hunter works quite well. Even if you ran Maul, Champion of the Sith, you still have to get him over to GOWK's support. The thing is, GOWK squads are like traps. A good GOWK player will stay back for the fist few rounds and draw the other player in, then when the enemy is close enough the trap springs and the GOWK squad swallows the other squad whole. It's not hard to do. I don't even play with GOWK any more because I feel like a jerk doing it.
RannKonnar
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 1:30:14 AM
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WHY BAN HIM????
I HAVNT GOT A CHANCE TO USE HIM YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IG-108
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 1:48:02 AM
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Another reason that GOWK shouldn't be banned is because SWM has been really sucessful because it has never banned pieces from the game before, like other miniature games have been known to do. If they ban GOWK, even though their reasons are justified, the game could lose many players. And again, if GOWK is banned, then the chance that other pieces could start getting banned in the future increases.
awesome
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 1:59:09 AM
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Boba Fettuccine wrote:
swmimperial130 wrote:
That's why you let your support (hopefully strong) kill their support.


I wish it were a simple as that. Rex and Dash both have Greater Mobile, so even getting them in your sights is hard work. There are not really any good shooters for the seps (unless paired with GGDAC, even then they aren't that good). The best you can hope for is to have a Dash of your own. I find Jango Bounty Hunter works quite well. Even if you ran Maul, Champion of the Sith, you still have to get him over to GOWK's support. The thing is, GOWK squads are like traps. A good GOWK player will stay back for the fist few rounds and draw the other player in, then when the enemy is close enough the trap springs and the GOWK squad swallows the other squad whole. It's not hard to do. I don't even play with GOWK any more because I feel like a jerk doing it.



actaully in a GGDAC squad they have something called a Lancer Droid and Sidiouse can Pawn it, both Rex and Dash would be dead in 1 turn,

+18 for 40 than another +18 for 40,

see, Seps do have really good support now, and I think that GGDAC with a Lancer, Sidiouse, Geonotian overseer, IG-86's that would be a really good fight for GOWK to stay alive.
DarthJak
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:13:32 AM
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Jonnyb815 wrote:
DarthJak wrote:
the only wrong with GOWK is that he is priced to low, he needs to be priced 15-20 points more. Sneaky


Again thats dumb. With GOWK at 75-80 you wont be able to win

nice statement"that's dumb" way to be diplomatic ya kriffin' sarlacc ! I know math is hard, but if GOWK was priced correctly (15-20 more) he would cost 70-75, not 75-80.these forums are getting way to mean-spirited and lack simple polite manners.ThumbDown
Uggie Demo
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:37:11 AM
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RannKonnar wrote:
WHY BAN HIM????
I HAVNT GOT A CHANCE TO USE HIM YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can still use him, just not in DCI games.


xpraider
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:51:23 AM
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I will agree that GOWK is broken. He's an extremely defensive piece with an awesome commander effect that takes a lot of attacks, or a decent amount of Direct Damage to kill. That said, I would still rather not see him banned for a few reasons.

1) While he constricts the meta, or at least changes the dynamics of it, he has basically become a gatekeeper piece, and effectively created Tier 0.5. In order to make the best squads, they need to be able to beat Tier 1 and GOWK. And while this is a bit restrictive, I haven't seen anything showing it to be much more restrictive than what Tier 1 used to be.

2) While he's broken, I don't think he's what would have really shifted the Meta. Yes, Soresu is annoying and hard to kill, but he's a single piece with it. Lately a lot of figures have gained evade, parry, or cloaked. Or something that hinders their opponent's ability to attack either from range or up close. GOWK is more of the end result of this. In terms of Evade, Rieekan and Wedge have probably done more to reduce the effectiveness on shooters overall, and the squads that can really counter them are squads with Disruptive (effectively Rebels and New Republic).

3) It sends balance back towards the lower skill level. Most games have some sort of faction or army that are much more forgiving than others. In terms of new players (or returning old players) who don't have much experience, it can be a bit overwhelming to start facing down the top players at a venue. At least having GOWK means they can jump in, and even if they don't win they at least have a fight in which they can feel somewhat competitive. This is true even at my own venue. Most of the players who used to play got discouraged because the same people kept winning, and combining that with new games coming out and the long gaps between Champions and Bounty Hunters and Bounty Hunters and A&E really hurt the game.

4) This is hardly the first time a figure came out and basically rearranged the Meta. I don't know how many of you guys were around when Universe came out, but at the time Grand Admiral Thrawn basically rewrote the meta. Probably worse than GOWK did. For a comparison. GOWK has a special ability that basically defeats one of the basic part of the system with Soresu being able to stop the Roll to Hit and do Damage, and at least for himself negates a whole slew of figures. GAT has a special ability that also played with the basic function of the game with Master Tactician, in addition, Thrawn also has an ability that effectively nerfs a basic part of the game and a whole slew of figures for anyone within 6 squares of himself with Ysalamiri, there weren't very many truly effective Jedi when that ability came into play. GOWK has an awesome CE for followers. Thrawn also has an awesome CE for followers, and also has the swap ability which became an integral part of the game. GOWK's overall damage output isn't that great, Thrawn's Damage output isn't that great.

The major differences between them are that all of Thrawn's abilities make everyone around him much more effective, GOWK's abilities make him nearly unkillable, and there are more counters to GOWK right now then there was for Thrawn back then. It took at least 2 sets for any sort of counter to Thrawn to come into play, and for the most part those abilities can still be used quite effectively, and in the mean time he came out along side Vader JH, was in one of the better supported faction at the time, and in the following set he got even better when Mas came out. We just learned to adapt and play through it.

5) Jedi Academy is practically out now, and while GOWK is still very effective, we now have alternative figures that do a lot of damage then him and still have some of the survivability (GMY). We also now have more pieces that can effectively hurt him (lot of corruption), or negate his ability to reroll (Force Defense), or just have enough attacks that he probably won't do much more than drag the fight out.
defender390
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:03:49 AM
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I actually think these new low cost non-unique characters with Force Renewal 1 and auto-damage abilities are a sign of changes to come.
kezzamachine
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 8:11:23 AM
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I like Obi-Wan Kenobi, Unleashed. He is great fun to play.
owaller3
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:52:01 AM
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I agree GOWK is a tough piece to beat. I am yet to loose to him with my squad Viable. I played in the regionals in NJ and took 7th place. I probably would have taken 1st if I had rolled a little better against a rebel push squad. I was 3-0 and would have went on to play the winner of the tournament who is my good friend and he has never beat me with GOWK. With that said I don't think GOWK squads are totally dominant in a good players hands. For example, Billiv15 took 13th place in the Chicago Regionals. I am not sure of the exact breakdown but it didn't seem like the majority of regionals were won by GOWK. Would I like for GOWK to be banned? On one hand I like the challenge but on the other I don't like the limited meta.

@dnemiller I understand you have played alot of matches at tournaments and you are very involved with DCI (I respect that) but hitting people over the head with comments that you are superior to everyone and that your select group of 16 will dominate every tournament doesn't add to the game it only serves to divide the community.
BobaFett62
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 10:11:29 AM
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don't know if this has been said on here but if you reprice GOWK then people will start calling for more repricing, like making Mas Ameeda 10-15 or Boba,BH 70-75. Then everything will fall into madness with pieces continually being raised in price.
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