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Vong and Blast Bugs Options
juice man
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 11:53:31 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
juice man wrote:
Ya'know what would be really great? If we could bring Bastilla into a Vong squad! (or vice versa, I'm not fussy)Flapper


But none of them would get the +10 damage due to force immunity
I know, but it just seemed to fit in this thread.

EDIT: It would work with the Peace Brigade Soldiers. ('cause they need the boost)Drool
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:11:15 PM
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I feel like i say this almost every thread, but noone's ever argued with me about it, so I'm going to keep on saying it.

I think the main reason that Bastila isn't that good any more is that lots of the best commander effect driven squads can largely ignore her. Daala can outactivate and bring Pellaeon, Vong Blast Bug swarms are force immune, Talon Fringe squads also have force immunity. Before it was a risk to bring Commander Effect reliant squads, as you'd have a decent chance of facing Bastila and having a tough game against her. It was part of what made the meta good in 2011-12, and non CE squads like Solo Charge were strong.

I don't think making Bastila weaker will help, and I don't think any of the OR alternatives are there as competitive options yet. My approach would be to tone down Daala and Vong, so that Bastila is viable again.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:29:20 PM
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As I said - it's mixed on Bastila (and The_Hutts makes perfectly reasonable points)

But is anyone against toning down blast bugs and Daala?


There has been talk of Vong Scouts losing Warrior (which is great), but that doesn't go far enough. If blast bugs were only for Unique warriors - then done. Problem solved!

Daala - again, make it charging ASSAULT (must be adjacent), then it's all good.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:36:16 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
I feel like i say this almost every thread, but noone's ever argued with me about it, so I'm going to keep on saying it.

I think the main reason that Bastila isn't that good any more is that lots of the best commander effect driven squads can largely ignore her. Daala can outactivate and bring Pellaeon, Vong Blast Bug swarms are force immune, Talon Fringe squads also have force immunity. Before it was a risk to bring Commander Effect reliant squads, as you'd have a decent chance of facing Bastila and having a tough game against her. It was part of what made the meta good in 2011-12, and non CE squads like Solo Charge were strong.

I don't think making Bastila weaker will help, and I don't think any of the OR alternatives are there as competitive options yet. My approach would be to tone down Daala and Vong, so that Bastila is viable again.


Bastila still affects Talon's Ce right?

Talon Vs. Bastila is some fun stuff.

Rebels are the CE heavy faction and the only reason why they do not care is because OR is simply not competitive.

You give OR some competitive pieces and make them dangerous and you will see Rebels change tune a bit as well.

I think toning Daala and the Vong will help OR.

I agree that toning down Bastila will not help OR be any more competitive. But it will allow designers to be more free in designing things that can be competitive.

IMO, the toning of Bastila should not happen until new pieces come out that help OR be competitive.

A too good OR hurts too many factions: republic, rebels, mandos, Sith, and Separatist

still does not hurt Imperials that much or NR that much. That is how I feel about it.

The toning of Bastila is not needed because OR is too competitive, it is needed to allow OR to be competitive without being too much.
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 2:57:55 PM
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In the current meta, would Bastila be stronger if she had a range 12 disruptive instead of board-wide ABM? It would almost be easier to just make an alternate one - we have two Thrawns.
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 3:05:30 PM
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I still think polling is one of the more accurate ways to gauge at least the active players on here and get a better community opinion then arbitrarily deciding things based on a few people's thoughts. True it doesn't represent everyone. I'm the only player active on bloomllk for northern Canada but we have a thriving 10 person+ group. But it's up to us that are active to represent our player groups and voice our vision and goal for the game, and I think polling is one of the best if not the very best tool available to us to take in the majority's opinions and help direct future design as well as correct existing mistakes and imbalances.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 3:06:14 PM
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How about ABM costs Force 2 and just suppresses Commander Effects? Or It costs 3, but it's +4/+4 instead of +10 damage?

EDIT: I totally agree on Daala and Blast Bugs. Actually, if Blast Bugs were changed to be Unique only, I seriously wouldn't mind if they even did 30 damage. That's probably a bad idea, but I'd prefer Unique-only 30 damage to non-Unique 20 damage swarms.

I'd be okay if Bastila was changed. Honestly, she makes the OR a real pain to try and figure out, because you can't just have a squad that does X, you have to figure out if your gimmick can work with Bastila... and then for the entirety of the game, you're spending some of your brain power micromanaging ABM.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, though, Bastila does encourage you to play quickly. Seems like you usually need to get in there and do your damage before Bastila runs out of FP.

And if we did change Bastila, the OR would need some serious help of another form. Right now they have the most widely-applying damage boost in the game, but because of that, they have just one damage boost. All except a small handful of OR pieces have been built with Bastila in mind, so their damage output will bottom out substantially if Bastila is changed the wrong way.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 3:21:14 PM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate for a second, though, Bastila does encourage you to play quickly. Seems like you usually need to get in there and do your damage before Bastila runs out of FP.


Sure it does that for Bastila's squad, but for the opponent it does the exact opposite. Heck yeah I'm gonna lock that door and wait a round for ABM to run out
CorellianComedian
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 3:59:17 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
CorellianComedian wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate for a second, though, Bastila does encourage you to play quickly. Seems like you usually need to get in there and do your damage before Bastila runs out of FP.


Sure it does that for Bastila's squad, but for the opponent it does the exact opposite. Heck yeah I'm gonna lock that door and wait a round for ABM to run out

Haha sorry, I should've included that you playing fast includes blowing every door on the map sky-high to get to them before ABM shuts down. But your point still stands, it only encourages fast play for one player.
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, October 6, 2017 11:42:40 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
I feel like i say this almost every thread, but noone's ever argued with me about it, so I'm going to keep on saying it.

I think the main reason that Bastila isn't that good any more is that lots of the best commander effect driven squads can largely ignore her. Daala can outactivate and bring Pellaeon, Vong Blast Bug swarms are force immune, Talon Fringe squads also have force immunity. Before it was a risk to bring Commander Effect reliant squads, as you'd have a decent chance of facing Bastila and having a tough game against her. It was part of what made the meta good in 2011-12, and non CE squads like Solo Charge were strong.

I don't think making Bastila weaker will help, and I don't think any of the OR alternatives are there as competitive options yet. My approach would be to tone down Daala and Vong, so that Bastila is viable again.



+1.



Do some peops have ADD around here? Why do we want to water down the competition to allow the Rebels and Imperials win almost every year???????????????

1. There is a reason that Rebels have won the most GenCons to date!

The cheapest tech, the cheapest Disruptive, the cheapest activation control, access to strafe, the best bodyguard in the game, and insane boardwide CE's! And now a 13 pt crazy power piece that puts them again ahead of the competition for many years to come!!!!!!!!!

2. There is a reason the Imperials have won the 2nd most GenCons!


Thrawn, boardwide swap, master tactician, activation control, and now a commander that buffs charging soldiers that exemplify and epitomize movement/movement breaking!!!!!!!!!


Please, I beg everyone here. Stop taking the blue pill guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( Hehehe, yeah, yeah, I'm a Matrix fan ThumpUp )


TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, October 7, 2017 12:08:21 PM
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I know this thread is entitled blast bugs, but it has become the de facto thread for suggestions to the balance committee.

I think every designer can attest to having a piece that they are ashamed of. Overall I have been proud with the final result of every set I have worked on. But along the way there have been a few pieces that in hindsight a designer sees that it should've been made different.

One of those such pieces for me is Pong Krell. I really don't know what we were thinking. It's a bit embarrassing. (Sorry everyone.)

If he just loses sense the future and anticipation then he'd be fine.


The main reason I am suggesting this, is because I feel it is a better option than a blanket floor rule.

There's a small handful of people that would be very upset if we make a blanket floor rule concerning reserves. Fixing pong I think would alleviate the problem.

A blanket floor rule would fix the problem for good, but I think the true problem is Pong.

Granted if we don't make a floor rule then we will have to be vigilant to not make such a foolish piece. I think (I hope) we would collectively make sure that never happens.
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, October 7, 2017 2:37:55 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I know this thread is entitled blast bugs, but it has become the de facto thread for suggestions to the balance committee.

I think every designer can attest to having a piece that they are ashamed of. Overall I have been proud with the final result of every set I have worked on. But along the way there have been a few pieces that in hindsight a designer sees that it should've been made different.

One of those such pieces for me is Pong Krell. I really don't know what we were thinking. It's a bit embarrassing. (Sorry everyone.)

If he just loses sense the future and anticipation then he'd be fine.


The main reason I am suggesting this, is because I feel it is a better option than a blanket floor rule.

There's a small handful of people that would be very upset if we make a blanket floor rule concerning reserves. Fixing pong I think would alleviate the problem.

A blanket floor rule would fix the problem for good, but I think the true problem is Pong.

Granted if we don't make a floor rule then we will have to be vigilant to not make such a foolish piece. I think (I hope) we would collectively make sure that never happens.


Totally ok with fixing Pong as long as Unkar is deleted as well. Don't see why Separatist, Vong, Imperial and Kazdan reserves all have to suffer because of Krell hate.
shmi15
Posted: Monday, October 9, 2017 5:36:52 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I know this thread is entitled blast bugs, but it has become the de facto thread for suggestions to the balance committee.

I think every designer can attest to having a piece that they are ashamed of. Overall I have been proud with the final result of every set I have worked on. But along the way there have been a few pieces that in hindsight a designer sees that it should've been made different.

One of those such pieces for me is Pong Krell. I really don't know what we were thinking. It's a bit embarrassing. (Sorry everyone.)

If he just loses sense the future and anticipation then he'd be fine.


The main reason I am suggesting this, is because I feel it is a better option than a blanket floor rule.

There's a small handful of people that would be very upset if we make a blanket floor rule concerning reserves. Fixing pong I think would alleviate the problem.

A blanket floor rule would fix the problem for good, but I think the true problem is Pong.

Granted if we don't make a floor rule then we will have to be vigilant to not make such a foolish piece. I think (I hope) we would collectively make sure that never happens.


Totally ok with fixing Pong as long as Unkar is deleted as well. Don't see why Separatist, Vong, Imperial and Kazdan reserves all have to suffer because of Krell hate.



I agree here 100% You can't make Unkar, and then change Pong. Thats 2 birds with one stone, while destroying the eggs in the nest.

If Pong gets changed, Unkar need to be banned. If Pong does not change, Keep Unkar, but a play style is officially countered for good.

Blast Bugs should go to Unique only. Playing swarms of characters who can do auto damage with FI is unbearable, especially when they cost less than 10.

Daala is stupid, and has been changed so many times, I think we can all agree she may have been the worst designed character that we have kept. Who knows what the best way to take care of her is. I do think Charging Assault is a good step, but I also think a complete redesign of her would be better. This piece is terrible. Absolutely terrible.



jen'ari
Posted: Monday, October 9, 2017 7:12:01 AM
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shmi15 wrote:
but a play style is officially countered for good.



Are people actually ok with this happening w/o community support? (it already happened) is there an update from balance committee on Unkarr? I would hate for it to take super long. Are we looking at same time line as Blast Bugs?
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, October 9, 2017 7:12:56 AM
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Good way to say it Shmi, fix Pong but remove Unkar. It's the only way to bring back balance and currently I think Unkar is worse than Bastilla as a counter as with Bastilla you MAY see her on the field and have to be prepare for a commander effect counter that works some of the time. With Unkar there is a 100% chance that you will run into him against any squad and he shuts down your entire team all of the time. So fix Pong, but don't through the entire playstyle baby out with the bath water.
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, October 9, 2017 7:22:33 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
shmi15 wrote:
but a play style is officially countered for good.



Are people actually ok with this happening w/o community support? (it already happened) is there an update from balance committee on Unkarr? I would hate for it to take super long. Are we looking at same time line as Blast Bugs?


The community was almost overwhelmingly in favor of fixing Unkar for balance but last I heard it was at the balance committee to see what would be changed. I think toning down Krell would allow unkar's Wager to just be deleted entirely though because is there actually any good tier 1.5 or better reserve teams other than pong?
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