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Robin wrote:
Owaller3, im curious what your strategy is for beating speedy cannon, i want to see if it's the same as mine, or it's a different one i could use. If you don't mind telling it that is. I'm sure i'm not the only person who has to play against these squads, that would like to work a possibly new counter in against them.
I used double override on ravaged base to keep the speeder from coming into command center. First round I would put yobuck in gambit in square r10. My mistake in the tournament was playing dash. I prefer boba enforcer because he makes speedy open up instead of bunching all of the figures together which is key. I would sit in gambit until the speeder made its move since I have a 51 point fig in gambit and if it goes to time I win. After the speeder made its initial move i would send out yobuck to hit as many of the figs as I could this would include the bodyguard, han, leia and if lucky lobot, reikan, and dodonna. I would end his move base to base with leia. The speeder and han would put around 110 dmg to 130 dmg on yobuck which would make it critical to win init. If I won init I would then kill leia. Then the next round I would have r2 and rex positioned to tow cable in and base han for the kill. This would leave the speeder. It would be a matter of moving up with dash and rex to threaten the commanders to make the speeder come in close enough to get attacked with rex for 80 and then based with dash for another 10. this strategy was too luck based and that is why I lost 3 out of 4 times.
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billiv15 wrote:owaller3 wrote:I was tempted to play stall cannon but after playing Viable at regionals which relies on the sample principle of stall stall stall I couldn't stomach another tournament playing each match to time. That's why I played Yobuck. Against most squads it won without taking it to time. I practiced against stall cannon and developed a strategy to beat it. I just didn't imagine having to face 4 of them. Only two of my games went to time, and only one was against another speeder. So that's 8 games with the speeder, not going to time for other people. How many of those games did the opponent not scoop?
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owaller3 wrote:
Only two of my games went to time, and only one was against another speeder. So that's 8 games with the speeder, not going to time for other people.
How many of those games did the opponent not scoop?[/quote] I reached the build total in time. That's what it means.
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owaller3 wrote:Robin wrote:
Owaller3, im curious what your strategy is for beating speedy cannon, i want to see if it's the same as mine, or it's a different one i could use. If you don't mind telling it that is. I'm sure i'm not the only person who has to play against these squads, that would like to work a possibly new counter in against them.
I used double override on ravaged base to keep the speeder from coming into command center. First round I would put yobuck in gambit in square r10. My mistake in the tournament was playing dash. I prefer boba enforcer because he makes speedy open up instead of bunching all of the figures together which is key. I would sit in gambit until the speeder made its move since I have a 51 point fig in gambit and if it goes to time I win. After the speeder made its initial move i would send out yobuck to hit as many of the figs as I could this would include the bodyguard, han, leia and if lucky lobot, reikan, and dodonna. I would end his move base to base with leia. The speeder and han would put around 110 dmg to 130 dmg on yobuck which would make it critical to win init. If I won init I would then kill leia. Then the next round I would have r2 and rex positioned to tow cable in and base han for the kill. This would leave the speeder. It would be a matter of moving up with dash and rex to threaten the commanders to make the speeder come in close enough to get attacked with rex for 80 and then based with dash for another 10. this strategy was too luck based and that is why I lost 3 out of 4 times. Wait, let me get this straight. Your strategy, was to wait out the slow cannon, sit and wait until they did something, and then counter attack. And then you are decrying your opponent's for doing the same thing???? Lol, what a hypocrite. This is exactly why making judgements about other players based on legal actions is so ridiculous. It's ok if you do it, but if your opponent's do it, "Shame, shame on them". Lol I guess you should have spent more time practicing your counter tactics then, and you would have had a better time playing.
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Owaller, I think your strategy is too luck based. It seems for your strategy to work in its entirety, you have to win map choice. If you opponent wins map choice, its likely they would pick a wide open map where gaining gambit is suicide against a speedy cannon or a variant thereof.
I believe some of the maps contributed favorably to the numerous speedy squads in addition to the strength of the rebel faction at the moment.
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I would say that the way to work Yobuck against the speeder is you have to force the action. You cannot afford to wait. You also have to use Rex for the penetration.
If you take yobuck up and sacrifice doombot you should be able to either get the speeder or princess leia in the exchange. IF your opponent is smart you just get Leia but you can force that action in fact even on Teth. I know Bill and I discussed this strategy with Lou V. He was able to pull it off twice quite well in the tourney.
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billiv15 wrote: Lol, what a hypocrite. This is exactly why making judgements about other players based on legal actions is so ridiculous. It's ok if you do it, but if your opponent's do it, "Shame, shame on them". Lol
I guess you should have spent more time practicing your counter tactics then, and you would have had a better time playing. Thank you for calling me a hypocrite. No on is judging anyone but you. I am merely stating the obvious that slow cannon is boring to play against. The opponent has the activation advantage and simply waits out till the end of the round. It is on them to act not me. I would win if they do nothing since I have Yobuck in gambit. Slow cannon simply sits back and waits till the opponent presents a target. Even so I would position my pieces until everything is in range for me to make a move. Usually 3rd round. And what I meant by make a move with the speeder is that it doesn't block my way in with Yobuck. Lastly, I did practice and like I explained it comes down to one init roll which I lost 3 times to 1. I didn't think everyone would run the same squad.
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Eroschilles wrote:Owaller, I think your strategy is too luck based. It seems for your strategy to work in its entirety, you have to win map choice. If you opponent wins map choice, its likely they would pick a wide open map where gaining gambit is suicide against a speedy cannon or a variant thereof.
I believe some of the maps contributed favorably to the numerous speedy squads in addition to the strength of the rebel faction at the moment. Believe it or not I won against slow cannon on Teth and it still came down to that same init roll.
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owaller3 wrote:billiv15 wrote: Lol, what a hypocrite. This is exactly why making judgements about other players based on legal actions is so ridiculous. It's ok if you do it, but if your opponent's do it, "Shame, shame on them". Lol
I guess you should have spent more time practicing your counter tactics then, and you would have had a better time playing. Thank you for calling me a hypocrite. No on is judging anyone but you. I am merely stating the obvious that slow cannon is boring to play against. The opponent has the activation advantage and simply waits out till the end of the round. It is on them to act not me. I would win if they do nothing since I have Yobuck in gambit. Slow cannon simply sits back and waits till the opponent presents a target. Even so I would position my pieces until everything is in range for me to make a move. Usually 3rd round. And what I meant by make a move with the speeder is that it doesn't block my way in with Yobuck. Lastly, I did practice and like I explained it comes down to one init roll which I lost 3 times to 1. I didn't think everyone would run the same squad. Just don't criticize players for using legal pieces and tactics. That was my entire point. You are welcome not to enjoy it, but leave the judgment out of it. And by the way, I am not judging you, you yourself made the contradiction. Moving on, I also tried to show you that the way you described it was not universal. Unfortunately, I am not sure who you played. I didn't play you, at least I don't think I did. So I can't really comment on those games. But as I said, I was not playing it at all as you described. I was attacking round 1-2 at the latest, and only 2 of my games the entire 2 days went to time. Round 7 vs James, and the finals vs Deri. Every other game, I scored the victory points well before time (or killed my opponent's offensive pieces and would have scored well within time so they conceded). I know there were others at the top tables playing more like I was as well. Nathan played his Cannon very similarly, and was usually killing something nasty in the first round with his Speeder, Leia, Bothan combo. Point is, what you have said, may have been true for your games (and I have no reason to doubt it), but it isn't an accurate picture of the tournament, or of the top tables as you have described it to be.
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owaller3 wrote:Robin wrote:
Owaller3, im curious what your strategy is for beating speedy cannon, i want to see if it's the same as mine, or it's a different one i could use. If you don't mind telling it that is. I'm sure i'm not the only person who has to play against these squads, that would like to work a possibly new counter in against them.
I used double override on ravaged base to keep the speeder from coming into command center. First round I would put yobuck in gambit in square r10. My mistake in the tournament was playing dash. I prefer boba enforcer because he makes speedy open up instead of bunching all of the figures together which is key. I would sit in gambit until the speeder made its move since I have a 51 point fig in gambit and if it goes to time I win. After the speeder made its initial move i would send out yobuck to hit as many of the figs as I could this would include the bodyguard, han, leia and if lucky lobot, reikan, and dodonna. I would end his move base to base with leia. The speeder and han would put around 110 dmg to 130 dmg on yobuck which would make it critical to win init. If I won init I would then kill leia. Then the next round I would have r2 and rex positioned to tow cable in and base han for the kill. This would leave the speeder. It would be a matter of moving up with dash and rex to threaten the commanders to make the speeder come in close enough to get attacked with rex for 80 and then based with dash for another 10. this strategy was too luck based and that is why I lost 3 out of 4 times. There is no way anyone who knows how to play the Speeder would let that happen lol. That is 100% luck based/having an inexperienced opponent reliant.
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owaller3 wrote:
Believe it or not I won against slow cannon on Teth and it still came down to that same init roll.
I think there is some revisionist history going on here. Your statement is in fact correct that you beat speeder one game, but you forgot to mention that in your one victory it was against me and the only pieces left were full speeder, Lobot, Dodonna against your 20hp Rex and full Dash. You won init and dropped 80 on the speeder with Rex and started counting squares with Dash and said next. I won't say it was only the hour sleep I got, but I was pretty delerious and what my brain processed was "spin Dash since you needed to crit on me to win" what really happened obviously was you won init and Rex activated so it was my turn. So, instead of me spinning Lobot or Dodonna and letting you have 4 chances to crit against me, which is what any normal person would have done, I think you are activated out and send the speeder up to take out Rex and you unload on me with Dash. Sure you could have managed a crit against the speeder with Dash. A victory yes, but you needed my help of being an idiot to make it happen. 
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owaller3 wrote:Robin wrote:
Owaller3, im curious what your strategy is for beating speedy cannon, i want to see if it's the same as mine, or it's a different one i could use. If you don't mind telling it that is. I'm sure i'm not the only person who has to play against these squads, that would like to work a possibly new counter in against them.
I used double override on ravaged base to keep the speeder from coming into command center. First round I would put yobuck in gambit in square r10. My mistake in the tournament was playing dash. I prefer boba enforcer because he makes speedy open up instead of bunching all of the figures together which is key. I would sit in gambit until the speeder made its move since I have a 51 point fig in gambit and if it goes to time I win. After the speeder made its initial move i would send out yobuck to hit as many of the figs as I could this would include the bodyguard, han, leia and if lucky lobot, reikan, and dodonna. I would end his move base to base with leia. The speeder and han would put around 110 dmg to 130 dmg on yobuck which would make it critical to win init. If I won init I would then kill leia. Then the next round I would have r2 and rex positioned to tow cable in and base han for the kill. This would leave the speeder. It would be a matter of moving up with dash and rex to threaten the commanders to make the speeder come in close enough to get attacked with rex for 80 and then based with dash for another 10. this strategy was too luck based and that is why I lost 3 out of 4 times. It's an intresting strategy, thanks for posting it. I would have to agree with alot of people on i think it relies on luck to much. The stragtegy that i use is cloaked. I use this team. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/View.aspx?ID=28506I would chose a map where gambit is in the open, then i would set a two scouts on one edge another scout and the captain in the middle. Then fett on the other edge. Place the mouse droid's smartly so that your scouts gain twin. (If you're a smart enough player, you'll also place them good enought for some of the scouts to gain accurate from fett. Use Fett to take down the snowspeeder, with his penatration 10, and make sure to kept the scouts in some sort of cover, so they all have cloaked. Where them down as the enemy has to advance on you. when i play this i usually have killed the speeder and am almost done with on han by time there next to my scouts. By then there no match for the power of the mandalorians!!!! No but seriuosly this is my squad and i always come out winning like 5 tournamnets to everyone. I really wish i could of gone to gen con, i think it would of been a blast. And bill some day will play, im not saying ill win, but ill be a good match. (at least i hope, LOL)
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Robin wrote:owaller3 wrote:Robin wrote:
Owaller3, im curious what your strategy is for beating speedy cannon, i want to see if it's the same as mine, or it's a different one i could use. If you don't mind telling it that is. I'm sure i'm not the only person who has to play against these squads, that would like to work a possibly new counter in against them.
I used double override on ravaged base to keep the speeder from coming into command center. First round I would put yobuck in gambit in square r10. My mistake in the tournament was playing dash. I prefer boba enforcer because he makes speedy open up instead of bunching all of the figures together which is key. I would sit in gambit until the speeder made its move since I have a 51 point fig in gambit and if it goes to time I win. After the speeder made its initial move i would send out yobuck to hit as many of the figs as I could this would include the bodyguard, han, leia and if lucky lobot, reikan, and dodonna. I would end his move base to base with leia. The speeder and han would put around 110 dmg to 130 dmg on yobuck which would make it critical to win init. If I won init I would then kill leia. Then the next round I would have r2 and rex positioned to tow cable in and base han for the kill. This would leave the speeder. It would be a matter of moving up with dash and rex to threaten the commanders to make the speeder come in close enough to get attacked with rex for 80 and then based with dash for another 10. this strategy was too luck based and that is why I lost 3 out of 4 times. It's an intresting strategy, thanks for posting it. I would have to agree with alot of people on i think it relies on luck to much. The stragtegy that i use is cloaked. I use this team. http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/View.aspx?ID=28506I would chose a map where gambit is in the open, then i would set a two scouts on one edge another scout and the captain in the middle. Then fett on the other edge. Place the mouse droid's smartly so that your scouts gain twin. (If you're a smart enough player, you'll also place them good enought for some of the scouts to gain accurate from fett. Use Fett to take down the snowspeeder, with his penatration 10, and make sure to kept the scouts in some sort of cover, so they all have cloaked. Where them down as the enemy has to advance on you. when i play this i usually have killed the speeder and am almost done with on han by time there next to my scouts. By then there no match for the power of the mandalorians!!!! No but seriuosly this is my squad and i always come out winning like 5 tournamnets to everyone. I really wish i could of gone to gen con, i think it would of been a blast. And bill some day will play, im not saying ill win, but ill be a good match. (at least i hope, LOL) Robin, I used this same strategy last year at PAX. I lost my match in the semi finals to the speeder squad I played against (forgot everyone had accurate  ) , but I think the strategy works well overall. I used a genoharden and caamasi to gain gambit and force the other player to come at me. The two scouts hung out in the back in cover with Boba and a czerka. It plays real slow, but like I said, I think it works.
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yea, but chuckfett, your squad has a different makeup then mine. You put a czerka, that right there changes it, because your scouts know have to stay within 6 squares, and mouse droids don't help them, it's a SA not CE. My squad is a lot more mobile and quicker then your's it needs to be. Plus it's not all toghter in one spot like yours. Both your scouts had to be pretty much next to the czerka. My scouts can be much farther away from the captain, thanks to the mouse's. And as for you saying forget accurate shot thats incredable silly, because with accurate i could aim and target your czerka, if it's not in cover, and with out her your scouts lose there 4 attacks. In all i think my squad plays similar, yet different from yours in many ways.
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Yes, our squads are different yet play similiar. I think you missed what I said about accurate....I had my opponents speeder dead to rights, but forgot I had accurate so targeted another piece instead. Still incredibly silly on my part, but in a much worse way  ! On using the Czerka instead of the Captain, at that time I found Jolt to be of great use for Boba. I expected to (and did) see Loda at the tourney. Those jolt saves really helped to eat through force points.
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ChuckaFett wrote:Yes, our squads are different yet play similiar. I think you missed what I said about accurate....I had my opponents speeder dead to rights, but forgot I had accurate so targeted another piece instead. Still incredibly silly on my part, but in a much worse way ! Oh yea lol i did miss understand you, sry. Then again you couldn't of played this squad yet, because IE hadn't come out yet, so i was playinig that same style team you were before IE came out w/ the mouses
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Robin, I hate to tell you, but there's no way that Mando squad would succeed against a player who knows what they're doing with the Speeder. Here's how it would play out.
The first couple of rounds, the Speeder squad out-activates you, and puts something in gambit at the end of the round. If you put a Mouse/Ugo/Gran into gambit as well, then the Speeder or Han Mobiles to kill whatever you put out there.
Finally, you'll have to put a Scout out there in gambit. At this point, the Rebel squad moves a Mouse out towards gambit, and then runs the Speeder out, more than 16 if necessary, bases your Scout, then has Leia give the Speeder the free shots for the kill.
Now, if you're lucky enough to win init, Boba gets 2 shots with Cunning on the Speeder, one or both of which could be evaded. So, at best, you put 60 damage on the Speeder, and have lost 1 of your Scouts already. The Speeder can now sit in gambit that entire round, and not have to worry about either of your other Scouts. The Rebel player could choose to run and hide the Speeder (keep your Captain from shooting at it), or could leave it there, banking on the high Defense and Evade to not take any more damage.
Rinse, repeat at least one more round. Or, if you choose to expose the Captain or more scouts, go hunt down those.
There's just no way to easily get ahead in the points race with that match-up. A good Speeder player will never let you get Opportunist shots on the Speeder with your Scouts. So, maybe you get a couple of Boba shots here or there, but you still need 7's to hit, and the Speeder could evade the shots. If you come out far enough to base the Speeder and shoot it with Cunning, now you're asking to get pummeled by a Speeder Twin, Leia boosted Speeder Twin, and then a shot from Han, likely resulting in a dead Boba.
I'm sure there are ways to win with that Mando squad, I just don't see it happening. Mandos weren't even close to a factor in the Championships this year. Mandos were awesome against the Speeder last year, but the Rebels gained Mobile + Evade since then. That just obliterates the Mando's power, IMO.
And yes, I would echo the sentiments of others. A large factor in the # of Speeder builds at the top tables has to do with the skill of the players. If you look at the top 20 players, you will see that almost all of them have been in that group of top 20 before. If they ALL played Mandos, then we would've seen Mandos at the top tables. :P
Oh, and there's a full break-down of the top 8 squads over on swmgamers.
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Lobo, i have a couple of questions for you on your outcome of what would happen if i played a cannon. The first thing i said is, that i would chose a map with an open gambit. That eliminates the option of a character in the cannon to move into gambit without, being fired upon, that same turn or next turn. As for a cannon out activating my squad not all cannon's have dodonna, and without dodonna we would be close to the same amount of characters. So not all cannon squads would out activate me. Not all of the top eight used dodonna, just as an example. If they do, then i get out activated. As far as the gambit goes on my side, i wouldn't ever move a scout into an open gambit where it would be destroyed. Don't forget, that there not the only one's with mobile. I don't have evade like the cannon's do, however i have cloaked which more then makes up for it. I don't get how the speeder can sit in gambit without my scouts going for it? If any of there piece's go into gambit, im using double w/ twin from my scouts , plus opportunist if i can that round. If it's the speeder that moved into gambit, my scouts can't do anything to it without opportunist because of damage reduction 10. Where does fett fit into your whole plan? The captain needs to be somewhat close to the scouts with the mouse droids. However Fett can go where ever and w/ flight moving around isn't a problem. I wouldn't be trying to move Fett into gambit at all. I wouldn't kept Fett w/ the scouts and captain either. I move fett on which ever side of the map gets me into enemy territory quicker. I would leave Fett within sight of all my scouts and the captain though, so if try to get stopped by han or the speeder fett has backup. If i don't get stopped and the other player focuses on the scouts and gambit. Then i move fett all the way around till he's where ever there hiding Dodonna and Rieekan, maybe ill get lucky and there will be leia there also or something. Without those pieces there is no cannon, and w/ the cannon it just becomes a speeder and han, without evade or mobile. If they do decide to go after fett which most time they do, that when i move an uggy or mouse into gambit. Then they have to split there attack and they can't just focuse on fett, now they have to worry about gambit. I never said it was easy to win against a cannon, because it's just not. This is the team i would of used had i gon to gen-con, i wasn't saying that it was made to beat cannon's it's not cannon's are a pain in the ass. However with that said, i know from experiance that this squad can beat cannon's if played right.
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He's right Robin.
And here is a very short, and accurate explanation of why.
Spin Dodonna
Spin Uggie
Spin Uggie
Spin Mouse
Spin Rieekan/Lobot ext.
Now you are all activated. Rebel Toolbox is still unactivated. Which means:
Princess Leia
Han Solo, Smuggler
Luke Snowspeeder/Landspeeder/ ext
Juno Eclipse
All of which can postion themselves according to where you placed your units (Which are stuck there until the next round).
And that is how the story goes...
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Boba52 wrote:owaller3 wrote:
Believe it or not I won against slow cannon on Teth and it still came down to that same init roll.
I think there is some revisionist history going on here. Your statement is in fact correct that you beat speeder one game, but you forgot to mention that in your one victory it was against me and the only pieces left were full speeder, Lobot, Dodonna against your 20hp Rex and full Dash. You won init and dropped 80 on the speeder with Rex and started counting squares with Dash and said next. I won't say it was only the hour sleep I got, but I was pretty delerious and what my brain processed was "spin Dash since you needed to crit on me to win" what really happened obviously was you won init and Rex activated so it was my turn. So, instead of me spinning Lobot or Dodonna and letting you have 4 chances to crit against me, which is what any normal person would have done, I think you are activated out and send the speeder up to take out Rex and you unload on me with Dash. Sure you could have managed a crit against the speeder with Dash. A victory yes, but you needed my help of being an idiot to make it happen. First of all, I shot the speeder 4 times with Rex and then was finishing my move. Your speeder had 10 hp. Did you also forget that I had lobot and that you only activate 1 when you win init? I was going to kill something either way since the door was open and dash was within range to get beyond it so you couldn't lock it with Lobot. There is no way you were winning. I was going to kill lobot and dodonna but instead I baited the speeder by leaving Rex in position. How else is someone supposed to interpret rex shoots 4 times and then starts to count squares and then final says "I'LL LEAVE HIM THERE" and then "GO". So don't accuse me of revisionist history here. You seemed like a pretty nice guy so lets keep the accusations to a minimum.
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