Jugulars statement was no more "attacking" than bills, what I mean by this is exactly the words that Jugular emphasized. Bill could have simply stated that "Gamers doesn't seem as active right now due to several regular posters efforts being put into the V-Set". That would get the exact same message across with out the "elitist" tone (as jugular put it, reference to elitism is based on an individuals perception and is not claimed "true" in either his post nor mine). Not to mention comparing activity in a private forum for a special project with the general forum of another site is hardly a valid arguement as it's comparing apples to oranges - they're both Tree fruit, but beyond that very lfew similarities.

As Obi-wan said "many truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Take that into consideration and try to understand what the other person means before claiming that their statement is "attacking".


* This post is merely intended to enlighten and it's content should have no negative bearings, if you find this post to be negative please try rereading it with a different mindset, thank you.

This has been an extremely rough year for everyone involved in this game.

Everyone, let’s take a moment to reflect on what was lost and what we’ve done to keep the flame alive.

Dean Miller and Aaron Shockley have been the caretakers of a passionate community. A passionate community that hasn’t had much to talk about these days. They have had the burden of finding things to for us to work on since the Star Wars miniatures was discontinued.

I’ve lost about a quarter of my income. I relied on these maps to help support myself and my family. I can only imagine Chris West has been worse off.

Then we need to think about the folks at wizards that lost their jobs.

What did we lose as a community? We lost support from Wizards, as well as ever dwindling support from retailers and local game stores. We’ve lost the means to plan events and get together on many levels.

But from the ashes we've decided to stick together and move towards the future in any aspect we can.

We truly owe it to ourselves to put it all aside, and look towards the future.

As someone who has enjoyed a lot of diplomatic immunity from both sides I’ve often really been able to look at this from both sides.

Dill, Dean, Aaron and a few others, I’ve enjoyed seeing things from your angle. And I’m sorry to say it, but there is a whole lot of elitism. It’s just the way it is. I know the attitudes from behind the scenes and say that all of us on that side have done little to give others that impression. A lot of us get really crappy attitudes about our perceived positions in the community. I am guilty of this also. So in that respect elitism is alive and well. There is definitely a clique over there, and to deny it is just flat out ridiculous.

So where does the attitude come from? I have theories. But it’s just human nature to I identify the “cool kids”, and you either in or you’re out. If you’re out of the inner circle, than you tend to want in. If you attempt to fit in, and get rejected, it hurts. You either move on, or it twists you into someone that your probably never wanted to be (See Shawn Sparks).

That rejection I speak of by the way comes in a few different forms on forums like this. I think the thing that hurts me the most personally is when my comments in threads are flat out ignored. This happened a lot for me early on when I first joined the forums. And some of my good friends are very guilty of it. How many times has there been a thread about any topic and your comments are generally ignored and the thread becomes an overly intellectual conversation between 2 or 3 overly technical players? Go look at the thread I started over at gamers about the maps for the restricted list, not the best example bit a pretty good one.

There is a condescending tone among a few players and it comes across very clearly through written text.

So on the other side there is very loud minority in this community (Bloomilk) that hasn’t done one blasted thing to keep the flame alive, and want to be part of the “winning team”. Well, to those people I quote the great rock band Cracker.

Get off this
Get on with it
If you want to change the world
Shut your mouth and start to spin it.

Basically what I’m saying is move on from some Gencon 4 or 5 years ago, let go of this pain your feeling, and ask someone “What can I do to help? I want to keep the flame alive, and I don’t want to give up on this game or this community”

And I’m asking my friends on the other side, please get over yourselves a little bit. Remember, your status in the Star Wars community is about as useful as an icebox in Alaska. Try a little humility, and work on developing this game for the people who play it and not just to feed your ego. Because the fact of the matter is, anyone here can make a V-Set. It’s awesome that your putting the work into it, I look forward to getting my set of cards, but if you keep the attitude up, enough people are going to feel rejected enough to get start their own league, and make their own V-set, and I think in the long run that will be damaging to the community as a whole.

Don’t get me wrong I think everyone should get together in small groups and work on their own things, like there own custom sets, for use with their friends. But enough community splintering will cause a whole group of people to break off, and I think right now solidarity is key to the community’s survival.

So I guess that’s the key, all parties involved need to understand that they have a hand in the successes and failures in going on right now. I love this game and I love the people playing it. We all need to get over it.

I know this is part soapbox/part ramble. But it’s all heart. I’m very concerned about this community.

Um, am I not owed the same courtesy? My post wasn't intended as an insult. I was adding to what Disturbed listed for informational purposes. There was no intention of being elitist, or making it a "which site is better" comment. But because I posted it, it of course is not read of its own accord.

I'm sorry, I used the word "dwarfs". That's a comparative word, but it fits right in with what I was responding to - read what Distrubed said about the amount of threads and topics. What I said is true. Quit trying to make my posts out to be some ego trip or something, I have nothing invested in that kind of material. He made a comparison between the number of posts that only partially reflects reality, and I posted to explain that reality to a degree. That's it, there ain't no more to it.

Billiv I wasn't insinuating that your post was attacking - I was saying that if Lobostele found Jugulars post attacking then your post would be just as guilty (which I really don't feel either was "attacking", Lobosteles response however I would say actually did attack Jugular in the vein of accusation).

The only issue I actually had with your post I outline in my previous post (essentially comparing apples to oranges).

Again for me it comes down to perceptions and what we are doing to give each other the wrong idea.

Theres plenty for everyone to at BOTH forums to keep SW Minis alive

- Bloomilk community members can organize events to promote the V-set and the League Kits that AG7 and I working on .

- Bloomilk members can actively play test all the custom maps for the standard and restricted lists.

- How about coming up with new stats for future V-sets? Start throwing as much poop against the wall to see what’ll stick.

- Bloomilk does have an outwardly active forum, and passionate star wars fans, use this to sustain the game. Use your creativity to build something.


AGAIN, IF YOU FEEL LEFT OUT ASK SOMEONE “WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP?”

Well Sparks I only have issues when folks tell lies about me or something I have done.

You say I have a long history of calling people liars. It looks bad when I do it. But lets look at some of the people I have called a liar.

Mandalore Da Beast - turns out he was lying.

Darth Jak - oops turns out he was too.


So I guess if fighting for the truth makes me look bad then I can deal with that.

On gamers you thanked us for not deleting your account and then asked for anyone to critique you and the fact you are opinionated. I politely answered your questions and even told you I was not trying to offend you. For answering you honestly, you resorted to name calling.


As far as you folks that think my demands for a super mod which I can get a hold of is a terrible. I am sorry you feel that way but it took over a year for the powers that be here to see the crap darth jak was pulling. If we get a cease and desist order from lfl I really dont want to wait a long time to be able to comply to that.

I made a relatively simple request and nothing has been done. You guys see me as the bad guy for making that request. I think wanting someone at this site that can guarantee me some assistance if needed is not asking a lot. I dont want control of bloomilk I just want someone I can go to if things get ugly with the v-set. Again if that is asking to much then I am sorry because it is what I think I need.

@JC
I am glad you seem to think there is some ulterior motive but there is not. Saying so does nothing to help move along the one effing request I have made from Shinja to move this along. Shinja knows what I want he was on the SHNN when I made the request.

Honestly guys....you know....discussions like this come up about...oh...once a month now? They start to get kind of old. I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, and most of you know, I tend to have more level headed responses than others who usually get lumped into the "evil" crowd.

But some of this stuff has got to stop.

You know the reason why guys like Bill and Dean always seem hostile on here? Because they are constantly being attacked. I can't go a week on these forums without seeing someone call the Gamers people 'elitist'. Can't go a week without someone complaining about something Bill or Dean or some other person at Gamers said. Yes, Dean tends to poke fun at Bloomilk sometimes on the SHHN or in other places, but honestly, sometimes he has a good reason to do so. With the Mandalore da Beast debacle...he had VERY good reason to. I'm not being mean there, or trying to start something, I'm just being blunt and honest. Perhaps he voices his opinion on the SHHN because that's the only place he can feel he can do it safely, because any time he tries to post over here, it's usually met with malice and annoyed Bloomilkers. Now, I'm not saying that he's right for saying some of that stuff, but if you were in his shoes, you'd understand that most of the time, he's just trying to vent his frustrations a bit.

Anyways, as Jedicartographer eluded to in his posts.....BOTH sites are responsible for the current state of things. So who has to fix it?? BOTH sites!! So, if the people on Bloomilk really want the V Sets here, then start acting like it:
- Stop attacking Bill or Dean or whoever for every little thing they do. Start reading their posts and then re-reading it, and then re-reading it again, BEFORE you respond to it, and try to see if they might possibly mean the post in a less antagonistic way than you initially think. We all know that typed sentences on forums can easily be misinterpreted due to the lack of tone. So try reading posts from people without looking at the Username (I know this is hard, but it really helps).
- Get engaged in initiatives that are started by community members. Sometimes I think a lot of Bloomilk folks forget that a lot of us have forged this community both on and OFF the forums. Many of the people who have this perceived 'elitist' status, or 'clique' or whatever you want to call it, is just simply because those are the people who have not only been involved on the forums for years and years, but they've shown up in person to large events as well like GenCon, Regionals, Dragon*Con, Origins, PAX, etc. So people know what you're like in real life, not just online. So, you have to realize that if you've never participated in person at any events, that you're going to have to go the extra mile, so to speak, in order for the online community to involve you. The only way to do this is to volunteer when the people who are community members head up projects. In addition, the majority of the 'regulars' at Gamers are again those people who have met each other in person. So, yes, we tend to have sort of a closer bond, and sometimes less likely to easily bring in new people. We try to work on that though, and I think that anyone who has truly tried to contribute at the Gamers site would tell you that they do not feel excluded.
- Remember that people aren't taking charge of things because they think they are the best at it. They're just doing it because no one else has volunteered, or been able to do the job. Trust me, very few of you would WANT the job the Dean has, trying to manage so many aspects of the community. He puts a CRAZY amount of time into things every single day/week/month/year. I'm pretty involved in stuff, and even I'm smart enough not to desire that position, lol. So don't automatically put a chip on your shoulder against someone because they wanted to lead something. Being a leader is not about who's the best, it's about who is willing and who commits to getting the job done.
- Building on that...Commit. More often than not, this is why people get "shunned" in online situations. Typically, nobody knows who you are besides a name on the computer screen. You volunteer to do something, but then you don't come through on your commitment. Well, you might've had perfectly legitimate reasons for the shortfall, but there's a pile of other people waiting to do the job instead. So, if you commit to something, then make sure you accomplish it. Otherwise, don't be upset when somebody else gets the job.

- Finally, this elitism stuff has got to stop. None of the people that get labeled as "elitists" ever see themselves that way. I know every one of those guys, and have met them in person, and I can't think of anyone right now that would actually want that kind of title. The only reason there is any perceived difference between "elite" and "non-elite" is because those who feel like "non-elite" claim there is a difference there. You won't see those "elitists" claiming that other people are peons or whatever. Now, sure, from time to time you'll see somebody make comments that might seem that way, but usually, it's just someone stating facts like "I've played the game for 5 years, and you've only played for 2." This isn't that person trying to be "elitist", it's just that they are trying to give a frame of reference for their comments.

On the other hand....this could sort of be looked at like High School. We all know that Seniors in High School are more respected than Freshmen, and there tends to be a bit of an elitist air there. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but those Seniors have earned the right to be Seniors. They've been around longer. They've done more work. They've put more time and energy into everything. So, yes, they deserve more respect and deference than someone who's only been around a year or two. That's just simple group dynamics. It shouldn't be something people get upset over.

And unfortunately, I think this is where the biggest rift with people gets started. Some of you think you're the hottest thing since sliced bread. And when a long-time player comes along and tells you your squad isn't any good, and tries to explain why, you go off on this rant about people being elitist and condescending and such. But you fail to recognize the fact that maybe that person has more experience than you, and maybe your experience is limited such that you don't understand things the way they do. Instead of fighting back and making claims of elitism, you would be well served to sit quietly and listen....LEARN. Those of you who are young players at this game are frankly wasting a valuable resource by constantly pushing people like Bill and Dean away. Guys like Sithborg are excellent players, and know the game well, but even he would tell you that he's not nearly as skilled as the guys who have won GenCon, or come close to it year after year. Those same people LIKE teaching other people (ask Weeks if you don't believe me, who Dean and Bill have taught extensively). The trick is....the student must have a teachable attitude, something which tends to be lacking around here.

Granted....most of these issues are generic people skill type issues that I find a lot of people do not learn these days, so it's not limited to forums. Unfortunately, it's something that a lot of younger kids just aren't getting taught by their parents anymore. So, hopefully rants like mine here, can maybe help people learn a few things. ;)

+1

In regards to the ulterior motive comment by Dean, you need to reread it without looking at it as a personal attack. It is constructive criticism, nothing more.

Also, in regards to the Dean and Shawn issues: Seriously, both of you just shut the heck up and stop jabbin at each other. Your both grown men. Act like it.

Mod Voice: Okay, things are starting to get a little heated. I suggest you take it to PMs, as for the most part this has been a pretty good thread. I would not like to shut this thread down.

The thing to take away from this is we seriously have to stop this fighting. Anyone ive talked to that is critical of Destiny of the Force ive always asked what they are personally doing to help keep SWM's alive. SOme say nothing, some say they dont want to keep playing and that is fine.

The thing is i've only been in this game since IE. That's not that long a time. And if it wasnt for Bloomilk AND Gamers i'd prob never of gotten really into the game. Dean has done a lot to keep us going at Gencon. (including dealing with the green hair guy for us :))

Yet when i turn on Bloomilk there is someone calling out the Vset sround every corner. Hey thats fine i have no issue with that everyone has an opinion. That however does not give you the right to personally call out anyone.

This will just continue to go on like this until both sides take a step back and count to 10 and then we can get together to work out our issues.

Next point. If you have an issue with V stuff being on gamers get a gamers account. It's free. You dont have to post but if you want to keep track of whats going on as far as spoilers go there and read, if its adds on 5 minutes to your day then you'll just have to deal with it.

Posting all this stuff does absolutely nothing but send us backwards. Lets stop this crap and start working forwards.