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Renegades and Rogues (contains spoilers for V-set 2. Full set list now up) Options
markedman247
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 4:37:48 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Wow... I just realized that this dooku is a fantastic counter to greater mobile.


Yep.

Rex: Hah! Take that Dooku, you CIS turncoat
Dooku: What a fabulous blaster you have
Rex: Yep, I hit you and I am going to hit you 3 more times.
Dooku: Really? Hmm. You? Boy? What is your name?
Dash: Dash, sir.
Dooku: "Dash?" How droll. Anyway, you see that guy guy in the white suit over there behind all those jedi? Could you hit him for me?
Dash: Well, I don't think I can. My blaster bolts seem to stop at the nearest target. That little hard to hit cockroach of a droid there. It's the darndest thing.
Dooku: Um, when I said hit him. I wasn't asking for a discussion. I want you to shoot him.
Dash: Um sure. Yessir. *blast and hit with a distant "Owwiee" scream.* Darn! That worked? Holy crap! That worked! They should shoot you more often.
Dooku: For your sake, you should pray they do not. Otherwise, I will cut that "D" off your name, Dash.
billiv15
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 4:38:30 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Wow... I just realized that this dooku is a fantastic counter to greater mobile if you can get the enemy close enough. Essentially, a twin attacker body guard could fire back twice for every one shot... hitting a character like Rex 8 times in exchange for his 4 shots.


Hehe, yes we specifically tested it against such things. Suffice it to say, Rex/Cad/Dash do not want to shoot at Dooku with Lando DS adjacent to him. Even shooting at Lando isn't a sure thing, with Draw Fire and evade in worst case scenarios. It's actually quite a counter to one of the things people complain most about the game. High damage less attacks are much better than the GMA double twinners against him.
jedispyder
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 4:39:53 AM
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dreadtech wrote:

Wrong. I said this several times over the last few years but will say again just for you. Not everyone plays 200 point DCI floor rules. When the group decided to do Vsets we were assured that other casual games styles would be considered when designing minis and that all minis would be playable outside of DCI games. DOTF did indeed do that. Not the case for this set so far 4 minis 5 if you count the new Maul for the BOT set are totally unacceptable outside of DCI games. 1 or 2 minis we would have just changed for our games but when it starts to become serveral. its easyer to just not use any.

Our group has already decided that this set will not be used in our games. Rather than ban the odd mini the group has decided to not use any. I am still having the cards (already donated anyway) for collection purposes only.

Very disappointed.

Can you describe to me how this piece is not playable in non-SWMGPA games? As Bill stated, he's no worse than the new Wat Tambor or Kazdan Paradus. And how are the other minis from the new sets "unplayable"? I'm just interested in your reasonings.
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 4:55:32 AM
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Also, while people continue to complain about this piece, i've been finding all sort of cool combos for him. It should really be pointed out that between him and the new Tactical Droid, the Separatists finally have some decent initiative control.

How does reserves work with Tactician? Is Tactician optional?
markedman247
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:00:37 AM
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No. You take the number you roll + Tactician. If that number equals reserves, then you get them. However, if you tie init with tactician with your opponent, you reroll with no Tactician bonus on the second roll.
markedman247
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:03:37 AM
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I think the negative reaction is the shell-shock that he isn't a Combat Commander that was being hoped for.
Azavander
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:12:05 AM
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I am thinking that Durge makes a really nice bodyguard, he takes the damage. Takes his turn regens 10, that 100 could go along way. (or 20 but for the cost diffrence?)
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:16:23 AM
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Aurra JH or CS Aurra (with Whorm) sitting next to Dooku should nerf Mara Jedi pretty nicely. LOL
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:27:58 AM
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markedman247 wrote:
I think the negative reaction is the shell-shock that he isn't a Combat Commander that was being hoped for.


I was expecting one too... but at the same time, i think that the v-set guys really thought it out. I personally get sick of seeing the same character recreated a million times with the same bag of tricks and one new force power. And they have some very valid points:

Skip to 5:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp9ajaF_QDo

Great example of the side of dooku they were trying to represent. He didn't pull out his saber... he just stood back and chillaxed while his droids and mandalorian kicked the s**t out of everything.

or this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdZ1s784Bw4&feature=related

Great example of using "Turn to the Dark Side".

markedman247
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:39:22 AM
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I know I railed against him in private when I first saw him. But a few simple questions that were asked made me see him as a pretty cool, not great, but cool character.

Sadly, all bets are off when facing an OR squad. One pop of little miss Sunshine's force power and you have to just trust your assassin droids and such do their work.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 5:46:05 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
Sithborg wrote:

This is the more public face of Dooku. I think Bill described it best last night. He didn't go around advertising he was a Sith Lord, this is the charasmatic, public face of the Seperatist movement. The one that the Confederacy Senate believes. It is a bold, and creative design move, and I applaud them for that.


Exactly. The CIS members did not fully know he was a Sith Lord, and they didn't know about Sideous being Palpatine, or even all know about Sideous. The public face was the diplomat Dooku. This is him. I know people wanted a combo of a 49pt Dooku fighter with a CE, but to be honest, making a 55-65pt Dooku with a CE was incredibly lame and didn't help the living part of the faction at all.


It's nice that you went with something different, however if you're goal was the public face/diplomat and not a sith lord then I'm even more dissapointed as his SAs/FP seem more Sith Lord-ish (very manipulative). Dooku was never shy about using his lightsaber if necessary, so the exclusion of that doesn't help my opinion on it any, it was certainly a valiant effort, but to me falls flat.
Darth_Sal
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 6:20:08 AM
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So, like everyone else, this Dooku is totally unexpected, and while I would still like to see more CEs for living Seps ...i'm kinda liking him. I can see that he will be pretty difficult to play, but as has been pointed out there are some interesting combos available. Make suree you have Lobot with him and have Lando in your reinforcements box
CerousMutor
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 6:23:17 AM
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Ha the great!
He ignores the rule! Thats amazing, now I cant wait to use him!
dreadtech
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 6:41:14 AM
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jedispyder wrote:
dreadtech wrote:

Wrong. I said this several times over the last few years but will say again just for you. Not everyone plays 200 point DCI floor rules. When the group decided to do Vsets we were assured that other casual games styles would be considered when designing minis and that all minis would be playable outside of DCI games. DOTF did indeed do that. Not the case for this set so far 4 minis 5 if you count the new Maul for the BOT set are totally unacceptable outside of DCI games. 1 or 2 minis we would have just changed for our games but when it starts to become serveral. its easyer to just not use any.

Our group has already decided that this set will not be used in our games. Rather than ban the odd mini the group has decided to not use any. I am still having the cards (already donated anyway) for collection purposes only.

Very disappointed.

Can you describe to me how this piece is not playable in non-SWMGPA games? As Bill stated, he's no worse than the new Wat Tambor or Kazdan Paradus. And how are the other minis from the new sets "unplayable"? I'm just interested in your reasonings.


Ok made a post on this a SWGamers, but will be explain more here.
He is no worse than Wat Tamor UF, but in large games you have two Sep characters with Immediate Separatist/droid Reserves, bring in 40 (two lots of 20) points of reserves, out side of DCI rules were you do not win on points this is a big issue. Same gos for Pawn of the Dark Side, having a single character with it is OK but two not so.
Other character that are problematic in casual games are the new Mace, Vader,Imps do not at this point need Immediate Reserves maybe 5 or 6 sets from now but certainly not at the present time. Maul because of force cloak, stealth would have been ok and before anyone gos on about hes limited force points he can gain them from others depending on your squad. there were other as well when we test them the other night. (not tested Dooku yes but have played double reverse in the past using RPG character)

No thought at all has gone into this set on how it plays outside of 200 point squads. when not using things like Gambit.

I am not going to go the sets done now, not expecting you to agree either with my view. I have updated post 1 with Dookus stats and will continue to update, however our group will not be using this set. Note not my decision but did agree with it.

Not going to talk more about this as do not want to spoil the thread for others. Well that and the characters are not going to change now any way.

EDIT should also say because forgot to earlier that for some minis it down to cost more than stats. and just stats for others , looking a Mace here.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 7:28:48 AM
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Got to thinking about Dooku more - and his stats are perfect... for a seperatist Holosid!
jlbm347
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 8:15:30 AM
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Location: Bloomington, Indiana
dreadtech wrote:
jedispyder wrote:
dreadtech wrote:

Wrong. I said this several times over the last few years but will say again just for you. Not everyone plays 200 point DCI floor rules. When the group decided to do Vsets we were assured that other casual games styles would be considered when designing minis and that all minis would be playable outside of DCI games. DOTF did indeed do that. Not the case for this set so far 4 minis 5 if you count the new Maul for the BOT set are totally unacceptable outside of DCI games. 1 or 2 minis we would have just changed for our games but when it starts to become serveral. its easyer to just not use any.

Our group has already decided that this set will not be used in our games. Rather than ban the odd mini the group has decided to not use any. I am still having the cards (already donated anyway) for collection purposes only.

Very disappointed.

Can you describe to me how this piece is not playable in non-SWMGPA games? As Bill stated, he's no worse than the new Wat Tambor or Kazdan Paradus. And how are the other minis from the new sets "unplayable"? I'm just interested in your reasonings.


Ok made a post on this a SWGamers, but will be explain more here.
He is no worse than Wat Tamor UF, but in large games you have two Sep characters with Immediate Separatist/droid Reserves, bring in 40 (two lots of 20) points of reserves, out side of DCI rules were you do not win on points this is a big issue. Same gos for Pawn of the Dark Side, having a single character with it is OK but two not so.
Other character that are problematic in casual games are the new Mace, Vader,Imps do not at this point need Immediate Reserves maybe 5 or 6 sets from now but certainly not at the present time. Maul because of force cloak, stealth would have been ok and before anyone gos on about hes limited force points he can gain them from others depending on your squad. there were other as well when we test them the other night. (not tested Dooku yes but have played double reverse in the past using RPG character)

No thought at all has gone into this set on how it plays outside of 200 point squads. when not using things like Gambit.

I am not going to go the sets done now, not expecting you to agree either with my view. I have updated post 1 with Dookus stats and will continue to update, however our group will not be using this set. Note not my decision but did agree with it.

Not going to talk more about this as do not want to spoil the thread for others. Well that and the characters are not going to change now any way.

EDIT should also say because forgot to earlier that for some minis it down to cost more than stats. and just stats for others , looking a Mace here.


You said you are not going to discuss your view any further but I would like to express mine.

My brother and I do not play DCI. We play until one of us surrenders or no longer has pieces left, occasionally we will play gambit. However, to us, forcing each other to meet in the middle of a map that may or may not have any defenses is detrimental to our enjoyment. We even play with the original SSM on Gowk and I can tell you, you start thinking about whether you want a good 20ish point shooter, Lando, DS, or some auto-damage like a Disciple of Ragnos.

Now I say that to say this; We play mass battles all the time, 500, 1,000 point matches. In fact we rarely play 200 point matches because it is so limiting. Our favorite point value is 250 or 300 because it feels like there is more than just two really good characters and support. To us the SA of reserves is one of the aspects that make us enjoy the larger games. The idea that I may have the upper hand now but if he rolls an 11 he will be bringing in 70 points of Fringe is always something we have to plan for. I don't necessarily like this Dooku but I don't dislike him either. I am pretty sure that my brother and I are in the minority when it comes to most of the issues raised on Bloomilk but I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the thought that Immediate Reserves, like this Dooku's, is game breaking for larger than 200 point DCI games and shows a lack of thought for mass battles.

My final comment is the following:
What is more Star Wars like than fighting a hard battle, when all of a sudden two columns of battle droids start marching towards you and you realize that you are going to have to try something crazy; crazy like attacking the Death Star, engaging General Grievous and an army of droids alone, or chasing down scout troopers and leaping from speeder bikes?

This is a game and you are not going to win every time but you can have fun every time. I still play stupid theme squads that I know are going to lose just because it is fun. I am not condemning you for your group deciding not to use this set, that is your choice and I respect that. However, I just want to express my opinion on the issue and my opinion is that this set can be used for more than just 200 point DCI.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
jlbm347
dreadtech
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 8:23:01 AM
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@ jlbm347
Have no problem with you disagreeing with me at all. If you got differant resuits play testing this set so far, cool, my group deciding not to use the set does not affect you at all. am sure those involed in the making of this set will be happy to read your post. ThumpUp
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 10:01:28 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
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I haven't played much above 200-pt games, but it seems like anything beyond 300 (maybe 400 with some restrictions) would just get ridiculous in terms of CEs. Needs some special mass battles rules.
Sashlon
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 10:03:59 AM
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Well I am pretty surprised at all the negativity.

But I guess I shouldn't be.

I will say that when I got Dooku to test, my immediate reaction was "that is wierd and crappy". And my testing results with him were poor. But I've since realised that that was more because my failings than any issue with the piece. It is a very different piece, and it requires careful squad building and placement during games. I think its great that the designers really thought outside the box.

I totally disagree that there's anything broken about the piece for either DCI or non-DCI play. I don't play DCI, and my son and I play mass battles regularly, and I wouldn't be fazed by seeing Dooku paired with either Wat or Sidious, or all 3 together.

Anyway, nice piece designers, took me a while to see it, but it is pretty cool.
BlooMilk
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 11:18:54 AM
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Sashlon wrote:

I totally disagree that there's anything broken about the piece for either DCI or non-DCI play. I don't play DCI, and my son and I play mass battles regularly, and I wouldn't be fazed by seeing Dooku paired with either Wat or Sidious, or all 3 together.


Yeah, I don't see the problem, either.

I've been particularly impressed with the pieces that have come out. I initially thought the new Mace was clearly broken, but I ran a simulation that showed his damage output is, on average, about the same as Lord Vader's. It's just that Lord Vader's is more consistent. With crits, it's possible Mace could take out anything. His standard damage is lower, though, which balances the average.

I like this Dooku. Seems odd to see him without Lightning or a lightsaber, but I like that it represents the political side of him. His manipulative side using the force is not something people would see, so it still fits with the politician.

Other than Brianna bringing the infuriating Lightsaber rule to the forefront again, I've been really happy.
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