If the implication is that Bill is a top player, I agree. But I've made the point before that if a piece isn't broken at the highest level of competition, it isn't broken. What Bill proved (and Jason during the regional season) is that there are all-WotC builds still viable.

Turn it around. Can a sub par player take any of these 'broken' pieces to an event and beat top players playing something else? Show me that at an event where top players are present and you've made your point with me.

(Juice man, all of the 'yous' I used were not directed at you... I just quoted you as a launching point.)

The main probelm is energy shield. Sure you are mobile, but if you are not adjacent to me you have to make a save 11 or you take the damage, that is where their strength lies in mass activations/act control and either making you make saves or damage yourself.

What pieces from the pre-vset meta are no longer competitive? There were only a handful of squad types, and it seems that they could still compete. Skybuck, Rebel Commandos, Lancer, Black & Blue, NR Mara+Disruptive. Am I missing anything from tier 1 of how WotC left the game?

Lancer took a major hit, but quite frankly I'm glad it did, because it alone eliminated swarm squads of almost any stripe. I'm not real happy with the top level swarm squad we have now (Naboo - really? Was anybody asking for Naboo to be tier 1?), but it's better than no swarm options at all.

From what I can tell, the Vset has vastly opened up the possibilities, not narrowed them.

Exactally, I had Sith in the top 4 at Gencon. Would have made the final too, but Bill divebombed my uggies and locked me out. Could the Sith of even had a shot pre-Vset? No.

Edit: Post 1000!!!

+1. There seems to be a very serious disconnect between how design is actually done and how some people perceive it. I've seen a few times (by a few different people) in the past few days that such-and-such changes design in some way. That's a mighty strong claim to make from the outside looking in, especially when all the designers disagree. You must think the designers are either stupid or liars when we say that you're wrong when you say that Satele "has fundamentally changed how pieces are costed".

The main problem with satele isn't how she helps other figures, or how new figures will help her. I think that we already have the best Satele squad out there, Weeks made it almost as soon as released, the Bastila, Aton, Carth, Satele squad that will be hard to replace now. You could surely design a piece that would replace one of these pieces and that is where I believe she will cause issues. I understand that you think I am wrong because you are designing pieces that are different then her and fill a different role, i understand that, but the problem I have is that the game and the best vset pieces are designed for competitive play. All the pieces that don't make a difference, that designers make to be fun, to make a piece that everyone has been asking for, are in their own right awesome, but in the end unless there is a future piece to boost those pieces they are flavor. Which leads to the exact problem I have presented... if we want to make a squad that is competitive we now have to compete with all the previous pieces that were released, sure they can be different and what not, but they have to be as good or better then the pieces we already have or they will be tossed into the fun.... but never used pile. And competing with this satele in almost every aspect will be extremely challenging, impossible... no.

Should do great against them considering she has parry and motf 2 and mettle. I dont really see the difference between our viewpoints other then the fact that I outright state that to make pieces that compete with her in the future her cost will be have to be included in the cost of the new pieces. To flesh them out the squad will have to be able to compete with the current meta better then the other options in the old republic.... which to me means they must either be similair in cost or better in the meta. Of course I guess you could just design pieces to shift the meta every so often, but with the open meta we have you would most likely have to design some super powerful abilities or pieces.

The classic Skybuck squad has been crystallised for about three years now - with General Skywalker, Yobuck, Dash, Panaka, Lobot etc. There are variants - Weeks took a Rex version to the top 8 of GenCon last year - but it's been a standard build for a long time. And it's not a bad thing.

I think there's room for interesting variants in a Bastila/Satele/Shooters squad - if there was something like a Jaden Korr in Old Republic I think he'd be an interesting alternative to one of the attackers. It would help a lot against GOWK.

The key to design is to offer alternatives. For instance Solo Charge has been pretty set since WOTC days, but Deri took a Corran Horn variant to top 8 this year. It is better against some squads and worse against others than solo charge is. The NR right now has lots of options in the 40-60 pt range that are all good (Mara, Han, Corran, Jaina, Kyle, Saba, Anakin GH, etc) but have their own strengths and weaknesses. In a meta where say one of them is king, another is not nearly as good.

The bothan spynet loves me, for all i do for them. Why do you think I post so many controversial topics, to get everyone's attention focused on what I would like it to be on