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Power Creep Options
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:04:15 AM
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Joined: 1/30/2009
Posts: 6,457
Location: Southern Illinois
And I will add to all, argue the topic all you like, but leave any cutting remarks to other members out of it.
Blah Blah Words
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:10:09 AM
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Joined: 4/30/2013
Posts: 19
Echo24 wrote:
Meh, change it to Warmachine then, something I actually have a little more experience with, and I know for a fact it isn't balanced all the way through.


So you have minimal experience with Warhammer, so you change it to Warmachine, then you throw in a quip about knowing for a fact Warhammer isn't balance all the way through. ThumbsUp
markedman247
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:16:36 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 5/14/2008
Posts: 2,063
End of April. Another "this game is Borken!" thread. Must be regional season.

Casual players: make any rules, changes, adaptations, or customs you want for your game with your people who agree. You control the game on your turf.
Competitive players: use every cutthroat, "Borken!," power duo you can to fight your way to victory in the no holds barred arena of GenCon.

There. Simple solution.







EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:18:11 AM
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Joined: 12/26/2008
Posts: 2,115
Location: Watertown, SD
Darth_Reignir wrote:

I read every word. I summarized what you told me for the sake of time. My argument is that the beauty of SWM is that you have the ability to take bad pieces such as SBD and make them good.

Your argument is that SBD's are innately bad and should never be played because, dude, why play them when you could be playing Darth Zannah.


No, his argument was why play with Super Battle Droids when there are other pieces (both WotC and V-Set) that can get the exact same buffs yet perform so much better?
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:20:07 AM
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
Blah Blah Words wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
Meh, change it to Warmachine then, something I actually have a little more experience with, and I know for a fact it isn't balanced all the way through.


So you have minimal experience with Warhammer, so you change it to Warmachine, then you throw in a quip about knowing for a fact Warhammer isn't balance all the way through. ThumbsUp


*sigh* "it" is referring to Warmachine in my post. I know for a fact that Warmachine isn't balanced all the way through (just ask a Menoth player what to do with the Exemplar Cinerators from the starter; the common answer is "throw them in the trash"). However, even Warhammer isn't perfectly balanced, but this has veered way too far off topic as it is.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:28:13 AM
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Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 1,246
Location: SWMing now in the 936
fingersandteeth wrote:
If the Vsets are failing anywhere its the aggressive costing of grunt pieces so that you have a bunch of no name pilots, assassins and droids running around wrecking shop with barely any recognizable hero's being used.

The real damaging power creep isn't Mace windu or Cadeus or whatever, its the re-costing of sub 15 point pieces that is altering the utilization of grunts.

Geonosian Drones, Naboo Pilots, Klatoonian Assassins etc, with the added synergies; these are all the mistakes.


+1
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:34:55 AM
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As long as we can all have a circle jerk as to how fair and balanced the V-Set is without having to take any criticism, then we'll all be happy.

You should all be ashamed. Games don't evolve by being perfect. They take criticism and adapt. Thus far, you've refused to take criticism, so the game will never change.

Enjoy your warped views on how a game should be. It's unfortunate that the Tournament players took over such a solid game and ruined it.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:42:46 AM
Rank: Moderator
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Joined: 1/30/2009
Posts: 6,457
Location: Southern Illinois
Darth_Reignir wrote:
As long as we can all have a circle jerk as to how fair and balanced the V-Set is without having to take any criticism, then we'll all be happy.

You should all be ashamed. Games don't evolve by being perfect. They take criticism and adapt. Thus far, you've refused to take criticism, so the game will never change.

Enjoy your warped views on how a game should be. It's unfortunate that the Tournament players took over such a solid game and ruined it.


Was/Is anyone stopping you from taking it in your own direction?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:47:45 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
Darth_Reignir wrote:
As long as we can all have a circle jerk as to how fair and balanced the V-Set is without having to take any criticism, then we'll all be happy.

You should all be ashamed. Games don't evolve by being perfect. They take criticism and adapt. Thus far, you've refused to take criticism, so the game will never change.

Enjoy your warped views on how a game should be. It's unfortunate that the Tournament players took over such a solid game and ruined it.


I have been to exactly 1 regional in my 4 years playing SWM, and about half of my games are scenarios/campaign play of some sort. I could hardly be called a Tournament player, but I applaud what the Vset designers are doing for the game.

TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:51:28 AM
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Joined: 6/23/2010
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Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
DARPH NADER wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
If the Vsets are failing anywhere its the aggressive costing of grunt pieces so that you have a bunch of no name pilots, assassins and droids running around wrecking shop with barely any recognizable hero's being used.

The real damaging power creep isn't Mace windu or Cadeus or whatever, its the re-costing of sub 15 point pieces that is altering the utilization of grunts.

Geonosian Drones, Naboo Pilots, Klatoonian Assassins etc, with the added synergies; these are all the mistakes.


+1


Yup! I think the big beatsticks that the v-sets added have been really good - if you wanted to play a big beatstick in the era immediately before the v-sets, there were very few options, probably only a few select pieces in Imperial, Republic, and New Republic, that could stand a chance against squads like Han Cannon and GGDAC boosted droids. Now there are some good options that can stand on their own a bit better against techy squads and shooter dominated squads.

I already said this recently, but I think if you breed a competitive meta, and play normal 1-on-1 150 or 200 point games, that's what the v-set is designed for. We're in New Zealand, and removed from the competitive scene in the states, but we have a leader (Kezzamachine) who's done his best to make New Zealand follow the same guidelines as the tournaments in the States and follow the same rules for gameplay. And in doing that, I think we've found that the v-set pieces make a lot of sense, and that we find the same pieces that fingersandteeth just cited (Geonosian Drones, Naboo Pilots, Klatooinaian Assassins) are some of the power pieces. While Jaina SotJ has never really been quite top tier, and there are plenty of ways to deal with Mace.

There's just no way I'd want to go back to no v-sets, and I don't think anyone else in NZ would either - they've opened the game up to so many different types of squads. It's like that moment when you're watching the Wizard of Oz, and it turns into technicolor. And there are Munchkins.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:57:47 AM
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
TheHutts wrote:
And there are Munchkins.


New Zealand is weird. Flapper
obiwan1knight
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:12:05 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 12/14/2011
Posts: 150
Location: Voss
TheHutts wrote:
DARPH NADER wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
If the Vsets are failing anywhere its the aggressive costing of grunt pieces so that you have a bunch of no name pilots, assassins and droids running around wrecking shop with barely any recognizable hero's being used.

The real damaging power creep isn't Mace windu or Cadeus or whatever, its the re-costing of sub 15 point pieces that is altering the utilization of grunts.

Geonosian Drones, Naboo Pilots, Klatoonian Assassins etc, with the added synergies; these are all the mistakes.


+1


Yup! I think the big beatsticks that the v-sets added have been really good - if you wanted to play a big beatstick in the era immediately before the v-sets, there were very few options, probably only a few select pieces in Imperial, Republic, and New Republic, that could stand a chance against squads like Han Cannon and GGDAC boosted droids. Now there are some good options that can stand on their own a bit better against techy squads and shooter dominated squads.

I already said this recently, but I think if you breed a competitive meta, and play normal 1-on-1 150 or 200 point games, that's what the v-set is designed for. We're in New Zealand, and removed from the competitive scene in the states, but we have a leader (Kezzamachine) who's done his best to make New Zealand follow the same guidelines as the tournaments in the States and follow the same rules for gameplay. And in doing that, I think we've found that the v-set pieces make a lot of sense, and that we find the same pieces that fingersandteeth just cited (Geonosian Drones, Naboo Pilots, Klatooinaian Assassins) are some of the power pieces. While Jaina SotJ has never really been quite top tier, and there are plenty of ways to deal with Mace.

There's just no way I'd want to go back to no v-sets, and I don't think anyone else in NZ would either - they've opened the game up to so many different types of squads. It's like that moment when you're watching the Wizard of Oz, and it turns into technicolor. And there are Munchkins.


Although this topic has been trampled by a horde of ewoks, crushed by AT-ATs and blown to space junk by the Death Star, I think this thread has finally convinced me that the V-Sets are a GREAT addition to the game! If you don't like it, do your own thing. I do think that at first glance may pieces seem ove rpowerd and maybe unfair, but I think eventually I will adapt to use them and like them. I must apologize for bashing the V-Sets so much in the past, and I thank the designers who keep the game alive! BlooMilk BlooMilk BlooMilk BlooMilk

+1 to fingersandteeth
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:12:41 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
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Back on topic... what would I have changed? Biggest suggestions...

Geonosian Drones: no rapport for them.
Bastila: Start with 1 fewer force point.
Mace: No Force Absorb.

These are probably more NPE complaints than balance complaints, though.
Mando
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:20:41 AM
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My suggestion to people who think pieces are "broken" is to bring your so called "broken squad" and play it at a tournament. Or even on vassal against other top players. As fingersandteeth said about Poggle, Kalt Assasins & Naboo Pilots, these were mistakes. However, that doesn't mean that these can't ever be remedied. I used to think Lord Kaan was broken for the mere fact that the Mando's and the Rebel's had no counter to him. I have retracted my statement since then. You know why? Becasue the designers realized this and made pieces like Kelborn and Princess Liea, Rebel Commando. There are competitive answers to every squad. There is no one squad out there right now that is reigning supreme and crushing every other squad it comes across. If you think there is one I'd like to know about it. Cause I've not seen a single one yet with all the V-sets. Instead of complaining about pieces, how about you people actually come on here with play reports and show us facts that prove a piece is "broken".
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:38:27 AM
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Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
Darth_Reignir wrote:
we're arguing on two different levels.

YES exactly. For the fun player, exclude any piece we want. Gen Riekkian is a real buzz-kill. We no longer use him.
If you want to play competitive, get used to EVERYTHING.
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:46:32 AM
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Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
Darth_Reignir wrote:
We don't use them. They're broken, they ruin the spirit of the game, and they have made our group go on two separate Hiatuses from the game. It isn't fair that the casual players have been cast aside by the tournament players who created the V-Set. I'm glad you're enjoying it, but to not even acknowledge the innate flaws of the V-Set is to be completely oblivious.
I am sad for you.
The people you play with are so polarized that they won't bend on V-sets? If someone says they don't want to see this again because they've seen it to much, I say OK, and try to get them to back off on something I don't want to see again.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:52:36 AM
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Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 1,246
Location: SWMing now in the 936
Mando wrote:
My suggestion to people who think pieces are "broken" is to bring your so called "broken squad" and play it at a tournament. Or even on vassal against other top players. Instead of complaining about pieces, how about you people actually come on here with play reports and show us facts that prove a piece is "broken".


+1... to Mando listen, you should...
jak
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 12:18:57 PM
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I can name dozens of broken pieces, but super glue usually fix themLOL
dreadtech
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 12:24:45 PM
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Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 942
This again?

Well in my opinion, ... Nope really can't be bothered to go though this again.
Joseph blob
Posted: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 12:34:11 PM
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Joined: 4/19/2012
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Location: Lost in the Unknown Regions with 20 Ewoks
jak wrote:
I can name dozens of broken pieces, but super glue usually fix themLOL


+1 LOL
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