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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 171
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Exactly what the Hutts said. I don't find any of it complicated and I think the reason people do find it complicated is because they don't play Vong. The reason they don't play Vong is because right now the Vong suck.
The only problem I have with Vong is it seems everyone wants to limit them. I hear people saying, we can make figure x with ability y and he will never be as good as _ (_ is a top tier piece from another faction) so that will be good.
And I say why? Limiting them like that is why they are the lowest faction right now. Make a good Vong piece that will stand its own when compared to _. Then you might be able to play Vong. I don't want to play the Vong when _ will always be better in every way.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 1,246
Location: SWMing now in the 936
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While I tend to agree that the number of SA's is on the increase for the Vong the same might be said of that across the board post WotC. While that's not necessarily a bad thing it does lend itself to a more complex way of building a squad, in this case the Vong. I think that it's encumbant on the builder/player to understand their squad before they take it out to a competitive event; over the past two years all of our events seem to be competitive, even the campaign based sagas and I can't remember the last casual game I had.
Anyway seat time is key, I mean hell yesterday I forgot Savage negates CE benefits so it's important to understand each piece and how they'll interact. No question in an attempt to improve the viability for the Vong to compete; they as a faction have become more complex but by no means do I think that degraded play is indicated as a result of these new pieces and ability. A seasoned player will know how to drive their squad and newcomers to the Vong should consider the mechanics of the build and how it would effect gameplay.
Perhaps this might be a good discussion thread (squad mechanics) to start given we've seen an influx of new and old players popping up recently?
Personally I'm waiting to see how and if V-set 6 improves things for the Vong, pieces like Quorreal have helped but they're lacking that "it" piece like a Caedus or Kelborn which have enthused players to no end this regional season. Here's hoping as I love the sheer brutality of this faction and was very pleased last year to have made a final four with them.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,784
Location: Canada
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Here's my issue with the Vong: Too much expensive tech needed to make them competitive. Period. End of story.
20 for a Shaper (27 for Nen Yim, similar costs for other shapers)
19 for a Priest (or more for other Scarification guys)
29 for Domain Shai Subaltern (Charging Fire is SO valuable for Vong)
15 for the Yammosk (the auto-include)
...that's 83pts of tech right there, and you haven't added any door control or attackers yet. Generally, when 40+% of your squad is tech, you're doing something wrong. 25% tech is the general rule of thumb that I use in squad-building.
IMO, the Vong tech needs to be completely recosted so that you can actually fit the necessary components into your squad with room left over for someone to actually do the attacking. 10-13pt Shaper, 10pt Scarification, etc. Let the overcosted Vong tech pieces fall into the Bin of Eternal Darkness, where they belong.
Part of the difficulty, though, is all the damage-stacking options that the Vong have. I did not include Poison or Cunning or Momentum (I know, it's hard to get), but it's very possible to have Vong pieces doing +50dmg per attack and more, which is wrong. Therefore, I think the fundamental problem with the Vong is the poor design decisions that WotC left us with: Excessive damage-stacking options forces an increase in the cost of those damage-boosting pieces, which then makes it very difficult to find enough room in your squad for enough tech to make your main attackers effective. In addition, it is dangerous to make a self-sufficient Vong piece, since it will have access to so many damage-boosting options.
I could go on for a while, but I've said my piece: Overcosted Vong Tech.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
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I think another issue is that they have more straight-up auto-loss (or very near auto-loss) match-ups.
From the beginning Vong have been better versus living. Poison, spit poison, thud-bugs, etc. Not to mention all those jedi-hunters which unless you're facing Proxy, is gonna be living.
What do you do if you face droids? Most of the time, you simply lose.
Alright - so if you are doing Nom-bombs or spit poison, what do you do if you face disruptive? You lose most always. Not to mention Lobot can just bring in a treadwell droid or two, and that's a double whammy - no bombs, AND it's a DROID! Not to mention Mowmaw and a movement breaker pooping all over that strategy.
And then we come to strafe. As someone who has had quite a bit of success with strafe in multiple factions, I can tell you Vong is one of the easiest match-ups. Nom-bombs are a little trickier, but even they are beat most often (treadwells, distraction, etc.) Vong without Nom Bombs are simple a joke to face with strafe. If you play it right it's a super easy win.
Droids, disruptive, strafe. All stomp Vong.
Well - let's just say - by this time next year, we'll have ways for Vong to NOT have auto-losses to at least these three. You'll be able to have a fighting chance.
Oh - and Trevor will like the fact that this tech will be cheap! (Quorreal - your new best friend)
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Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
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I know this isn't the popular position, but I basically see Vong as a gimmick faction... like a gimmick squad but all squads the Vong have fall under that category. A gimmick squad can do well against some things, but it isn't even supposed to be competitive generally. I feel the same about Vong... just there to keep Jedi from getting too powerful in the meta. If you know some Jedi is dominating the competitive scene and that's pretty much all you'll see, then maybe Vong are the perfect antidote. Otherwise, *shrug*. (My views perhaps partially comes from the fact that I didn't think the Vong were a great addition to canon in the first place.)
My apologies to Vong fanboys...
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