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thereisnotry wrote:atmsalad wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:It would obviously work better for the squads I've been running the last 2 seasons if we left Ysalimiri alone. However, I've been re-reading my favorite Star Wars novels this summer and in Timothy Zahn's books he goes into detail how force users are challenged by ysalimiri and their bubble. There are also examples in those books concerning the limitations of the bubble. I think we're addressing the ability by changing the glossary to reflect what we see in those novels. I support the proposed changes and, to me anyway, it's an easy, logical fix. I am going to be introducing 4 of my friends to the game this summer and a couple of them have a direct connection to the universe through those books. I would love if I didn't have to tell them how it weekend Jedi more than it should. Also, if in the process we could make it so Jedi can respond to the bongs attacks then I am all for it. Easy: they can just say, "You don't want to sell me [bongs]....You want to go home and rethink your life." If you're talking about Vong, though, then I think it's a different story. I'm pretty sure that Force Immunity is here to stay in its current (and always so far) form. There is nothing more "VONG" than Force Immunity. It would strip them of their essential flavor and needed advantage to compete if it were changed. A vote for that change is essentially saying "I don't like Vong and let's abolish that faction" (Kinda like Legends did)
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People in this thread against SSM
People in this thread against Force Bubble
Same people that made a CDO so broken it legitimately had to be banned
Same people okay with force ghosts being counted as living
Same people who think that choosing and targeting don't mean the same thing
This is why VSets are ruining the game.
RIP SW Minis
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Prestige Worldwide wrote:People in this thread against SSM
People in this thread against Force Bubble
Same people that made a CDO so broken it legitimately had to be banned
Same people okay with force ghosts being counted as living
Same people who think that choosing and targeting don't mean the same thing
This is why VSets are ruining the game.
RIP SW Minis You are very confused.
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TimmerB123 wrote:thereisnotry wrote:atmsalad wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:It would obviously work better for the squads I've been running the last 2 seasons if we left Ysalimiri alone. However, I've been re-reading my favorite Star Wars novels this summer and in Timothy Zahn's books he goes into detail how force users are challenged by ysalimiri and their bubble. There are also examples in those books concerning the limitations of the bubble. I think we're addressing the ability by changing the glossary to reflect what we see in those novels. I support the proposed changes and, to me anyway, it's an easy, logical fix. I am going to be introducing 4 of my friends to the game this summer and a couple of them have a direct connection to the universe through those books. I would love if I didn't have to tell them how it weekend Jedi more than it should. Also, if in the process we could make it so Jedi can respond to the bongs attacks then I am all for it. Easy: they can just say, "You don't want to sell me [bongs]....You want to go home and rethink your life." If you're talking about Vong, though, then I think it's a different story. I'm pretty sure that Force Immunity is here to stay in its current (and always so far) form. There is nothing more "VONG" than Force Immunity. It would strip them of their essential flavor and needed advantage to compete if it were changed. A vote for that change is essentially saying "I don't like Vong and let's abolish that faction" (Kinda like Legends did) What TimmerB123 said.
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SignerJ wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:There is nothing more "VONG" than Force Immunity. It would strip them of their essential flavor and needed advantage to compete if it were changed. A vote for that change is essentially saying "I don't like Vong and let's abolish that faction" (Kinda like Legends did) What TimmerB123 said. I'm not for stripping the Vong of force immunity. However, just as in the Star Wars universe, I would like to be able to target them with light saber throw and use powers to respond to their attacks. Block, defense and riposte are the only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head. The Vong aren't supposed to create a force bubble around them and in the majority of cases that is what they do. Also, several people have said they are natural counters to Jedi. No faction should be an auto counter to a squad type, IMO. Let's try to stay on the topic at hand though, that being yalismari.
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TimmerB123 wrote:
There is nothing more "VONG" than a real representation of Force Immunity.
added the bold. Force Immunity idea is cool, Legacy discussed bringing Vong in with a different form of force immunity. At some point we might... kind of looking at the possible change to ysalamiri to see if that helps us have a form by which to go by. Here is one example. Force Immunity: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers. Would be perfect as the force to reroll deals with the user and not the vong character. as lightsaber block deals with the user and not the vong. unless Force immunity somehow affects muscles and lightsabers...
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jen'ari wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:
There is nothing more "VONG" than a real representation of Force Immunity.
added the bold. Force Immunity idea is cool, Legacy discussed bringing Vong in with a different form of force immunity. At some point we might... kind of looking at the possible change to ysalamiri to see if that helps us have a form by which to go by. Here is one example. Force Immunity: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers. Would be perfect as the force to reroll deals with the user and not the vong character. as lightsaber block deals with the user and not the vong. unless Force immunity somehow affects muscles and lightsabers... If you read the lore, Jedi couldn't use the force on their lightsabers and muscles when fighting the Vong. Because what they really are doing is using the force to sense the attacker's moves before hand (or earlier), they can't sense the Vong's moves, so they can't get their LS in position. There is no perfect representation, but Force Immunity works for the Vong pretty darn close. Deflecting a bolt however, over a large chunk of space, should be possible for a jedi, provided his use of the force isn't prohibited by the bubble. So the two are in fact different things.
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billiv15 wrote:jen'ari wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:
There is nothing more "VONG" than a real representation of Force Immunity.
added the bold. Force Immunity idea is cool, Legacy discussed bringing Vong in with a different form of force immunity. At some point we might... kind of looking at the possible change to ysalamiri to see if that helps us have a form by which to go by. Here is one example. Force Immunity: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers. Would be perfect as the force to reroll deals with the user and not the vong character. as lightsaber block deals with the user and not the vong. unless Force immunity somehow affects muscles and lightsabers... If you read the lore, Jedi couldn't use the force on their lightsabers and muscles when fighting the Vong. Because what they really are doing is using the force to sense the attacker's moves before hand (or earlier), they can't sense the Vong's moves, so they can't get their LS in position. There is no perfect representation, but Force Immunity works for the Vong pretty darn close. Deflecting a bolt however, over a large chunk of space, should be possible for a jedi, provided his use of the force isn't prohibited by the bubble. So the two are in fact different things. Than I would recommend a minus to the save. Jedi train very hard for a reason. They do not do everything by the force, they are great athletes in general (think any fighter that does not use the force that can parry, evade, etc.) i get that they can't predict vong movements with the force, but MMA fighters are taught to predict movements in our world. What I am saying is that they are master fighters even without the force. Ulic Qel-Droma is a great example of that. When Nomi cut his connection to the force he was still a very very good fighter. Force Immunity: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force Powers. Enemies that spend force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities get -4 to their rolls.
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Yes, in an RPG it would be a minus to the save. In minis it has to be simplified at times. Different levels of detail.
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billiv15 wrote:Yes, in an RPG it would be a minus to the save. In minis it has to be simplified at times. Different levels of detail. i dont fully understand this sentiment to be honest. if it is easy to read and understand and it is on the card how simplified must it be? Rigged Detonators is a good example, very unique, very specific. It works just fine because you can read it and go about your business. Face Your Destiny is more difficult because it is not that simply written out. Has lots of different things going on. If the wording is simple and easy, than how is it not simplified?
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TimmerB123 wrote:billiv15 wrote:Ironically Tim was against changing it in the first place, and now argues that changing it back was a mistake. Can't win with some people.
What!?! That is very far from the truth. Maybe you're confusing the fact that I was against the TIMING of the original change. I have NEVER liked changes less than 2 months before GenCon. As a competitor I would have fared better if people kept on playing GOWK at that time, it was very easy to beat GOWK, and for some reason others had a hard time grasping this concept. That being said - I have always hated SSM, and I felt the WotC change to nerf it was better for the game overall. I think it's an ability that promotes tactics that are not good for the game. Lots of staying far away and shooting (because there is no advantage to getting close), locking doors, and non-engagement on BOTH sides. Complete side note - what it should have been in the first place was save 11 for ALL non-melee attacks (including adjacent). But that has nothing to do with this thread. To be clear, I have ALWAYS been against late changes, I have ALWAYS been against SSM. I beat GOWK with Gungans but to beat GOWK you need to kill him not just avoid him Lol for a 20-5 win because of gambit and playing slow so you get in 3 rounds is not beating him either.
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Jonnyb815 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:billiv15 wrote:Ironically Tim was against changing it in the first place, and now argues that changing it back was a mistake. Can't win with some people.
What!?! That is very far from the truth. Maybe you're confusing the fact that I was against the TIMING of the original change. I have NEVER liked changes less than 2 months before GenCon. As a competitor I would have fared better if people kept on playing GOWK at that time, it was very easy to beat GOWK, and for some reason others had a hard time grasping this concept. That being said - I have always hated SSM, and I felt the WotC change to nerf it was better for the game overall. I think it's an ability that promotes tactics that are not good for the game. Lots of staying far away and shooting (because there is no advantage to getting close), locking doors, and non-engagement on BOTH sides. Complete side note - what it should have been in the first place was save 11 for ALL non-melee attacks (including adjacent). But that has nothing to do with this thread. To be clear, I have ALWAYS been against late changes, I have ALWAYS been against SSM. I beat GOWK with Gungans but to beat GOWK you need to kill him not just avoid him Lol for a 20-5 win because of gambit and playing slow so you get in 3 rounds is not beating him either. I consistently beat GOWK in that era killing the whole squad most of the time. You avoid GOWK until last, killing everything else. Then concentrate firepower on just GOWK. You can't let GOWK soak up the damage while everything else lives.
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SSM is no big deal. When is the last time you saw it played? When did it dominate last (if ever)? Only a few pieces have it anyway.
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