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urbanjedi wrote:Darth_Jim wrote: I think that all transports should abide by the same rule regarding activations. I agree 100% Same here. I'm looking at the using Force powers bit.
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jak wrote:one more thing: Jim's intent was to allow any number of transported pieces leave the Skiff. as it is now it is either all or nothing  maybe the Balance Committee can look into this. (oh no! now I have an agenda as well! am I/it important enough for it to matter?) Yes, you're correct Jak there should be a "may" in there just like regular disembark prior to the round. That's probably my fault, it was becoming a stacked card and I was trying to make sure we could get everything to fit. I believe it should be: Disembark wrote: Disembark (Replaces attacks: Transported allies may immediately return to the battle grid adjacent to this character) Characters do not suddenly vanish from the game and operate outside the normal rule set. They're "Transported" and operate under the normal rules with additions/ exceptions created by the Special Ability transporting them; Large Transport, Skiff, Troop Cart, Meditation Sphere, Mount, ect... They're being transported until they're returned to the board or defeated. There's no rules hidey-hole. Characters transported by Large Transport must make a save 6 or die in transit with the Large Transport. They are not suspended in mid-air, "woe, what happened to our ride!?" Transported characters on a Large Transport cannot make attacks so they will NOT get to make death shots. Large Transport suppresses character's Special Abilities so they will NOT get Avoid Defeat saves or Self-Destruct. Revan could swap with a transported character onto a Large Transport but he couldn't swap off of it. Thrawn cannot swap characters on or off a Large Transport. Yes, a Sith Recruit NOT being transported could be sacked to reroll a defeat save. Jim said he wanted a Skiff that could be used to transport Force Users and couldn't be used as a "gunship." If Force Users can't build up Force points or Reroll the defeat save while on it then there's little reason to put any 40~60 cost Jedi or Sith onto that transport. Like who would want their Darth Bane to die like that 
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urbanjedi wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:I guess I assumed that, being off of the board, characters couldn't activate. The main issue if that were the case (as I think TJ pointed out earlier is two fold). 1. The round doesn't end until all characters are activated so how do we know when the round ends? And yes this could be a simple answer of all characters on the board are activated so more of a non-issue but still potentially relevant. For instance if I levitated Atris onto the troop cart (after she had activated and used Meditation, then the Force ability would go forever, as they would never activate. Same holds true for Bastilla and the original skiff 2. If they don't activate, then when your opponent kills said skiff, now they come on with a full crew of unactivated guys to wreck shop with? So now, your opponent doesn't have any incentive to try and kill the skiff (seems bad for minis) as when they do, they get a face full of whatever is on it, because those characters haven't yet activated this round. Darth_Jim wrote: I think that all transports should abide by the same rule regarding activations. I agree 100% 1: Force Abilities are surpressed. 2: Isn't that the point of this Skiff? Delever unactivated troops? They can also die when Skiff is defeated. Never stopped my opponents from killing the thing.
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urbanjedi wrote:2. If they don't activate, then when your opponent kills said skiff, now they come on with a full crew of unactivated guys to wreck shop with?
So now, your opponent doesn't have any incentive to try and kill the skiff (seems bad for minis) as when they do, they get a face full of whatever is on it, because those characters haven't yet activated this round.
It would still be better to take out the skiff as it could easily use Disembark to deliver a face full of (potentially, had they not used their turn to "spin" yet) unactivated characters anyway, at least defeating it offers a slim chance they are defeated as well.
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Lord_Ball wrote:urbanjedi wrote:2. If they don't activate, then when your opponent kills said skiff, now they come on with a full crew of unactivated guys to wreck shop with?
So now, your opponent doesn't have any incentive to try and kill the skiff (seems bad for minis) as when they do, they get a face full of whatever is on it, because those characters haven't yet activated this round.
It would still be better to take out the skiff as it could easily use Disembark to deliver a face full of (potentially, had they not used their turn to "spin" yet) unactivated characters anyway, at least defeating it offers a slim chance they are defeated as well. Nothing is bad for minis if the designers design it.
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Characters on the skiff have to count as activated/unactivated somehow. The round starts with everyone unactivated and the round ends when everyone is activated. If we just say they count as neither and somehow aren't in the skirmish it opens up other rules question that would need to be addressed. Here are a couple:
* If they somehow aren't in the skirmish, are they in the squad for the purposes of Black Sun, etc?
* When counting characters for abilities that require counting characters, would they count?
Each question would be relatively easy to answer individually, but there's no guarantee we wouldn't overlook something that would need to be answered later. And many questions would in fact need to be addressed individually. This is not a complication we want to introduce.
So the characters on the skiff need an activation status. They could have automatically been considered activated at basically any point in a round (e.g. at the end of the Skiff's turn), but then they wouldn't get Force Renewal. Jim wanted them to get Force Renewal on the skiff. So the passengers activate just like they would on any other mount in the game. Added bonus is the similarity with other mounts.
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FlyingArrow wrote:So the characters on the skiff need an activation status. They could have automatically been considered activated at basically any point in a round (e.g. at the end of the Skiff's turn), but then they wouldn't get Force Renewal. Jim wanted them to get Force Renewal on the skiff. So the passengers activate just like they would on any other mount in the game. Added bonus is the similarity with other mounts. This is the best argument for activation. A simple glossary entry would clear up much.
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Ok, I'm ok with the Renewal on Skiff  Now how about the leaving the Skiff rules.
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jak wrote:Ok, I'm ok with the Renewal on Skiff Now how about the leaving the Skiff rules. You mean this? http://www.bloomilk.com/SpecialAbility?Id=1267
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The card makes it sound like every one of the passengers must exit at the same time.
Jim said his intent was to make a choice as to who exits.
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The glossary Dave just posted follows Jim's intent.
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that not how we played it. after passing the card around, even Jim said the card seemed to indicate ALL must get off. so, the glossary must be different. weird. playing it wrong, as we we told to do, cost Joe and games I don't know why this stuff doesn't get corrected in design, or playtesting. well, I do know why..............but I'll be nice (this time)
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[quote=jak]that not how we played it. after passing the card around, even Jim said the card seemed to indicate ALL must get off. so, the glossary must be different. weird. playing it wrong, as we we told to do, cost Joe and games I don't know why this stuff doesn't get corrected in design, or playtesting. well, I do know why..............but I'll be nice (this time)[/quot Oh well. Chalk it up to another mistake. Maybe we should refrain from making such complex pieces. I mean. Now I understand why equipment would not work. How is it that I have been out of the loop for multiple sets, yet once I come back, I ask questions that no one else asks about pieces? Are you guys sure you don't want my help in the design process more? Or do you like it better having to errata things after the fact?
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The mistake was mine alone and I sincerely apologize.
I accidentally omitted the word "May" editing to have everything fit on the card.
Up until that point, "May" was in the Disembark SA and its removal went unnoticed.
It wasn't the playtester's or quality control's fault. You shouldn't expect them to catch something like that.
How could they have known it wasn't the designer's intent for the piece.
Regardless, of number and quality of people working on these sets, simple mistakes like mine are bound to slip through. Even WotC had mistakes like forgetting Melee Attack on Darth Krayt which required errata.
There are multiple instances in SWM where card text is unreliable and you have to look to the Glossary.
I advise players to seek clarification on pieces they intend to play well in advance of an event.
Players at our tournaments love to help and are usually good at answering questions. However, during the hustle and bustle of registration or during start time doesn't always provide the best answer. Also, be sure to check with several people and the official judge. Don't just rely on the opinion of one person, even if they designed said piece. When you design a piece you see it go through multiple changes and it's easy to remember stuff wrong.
I've never heard of anyone being unwanted or unwelcome to help out with our designs. We're currently seeking playtests for Set 15 and would love everyone's help. It's not like there's some nefarious plot or horrendous travesty being committed by designers or anyone. This was a simple oversight cleared up by the Glossary and not requiring errata. I'm very sorry if my mistake inadvertently had a negative impact on someone's games. If your looking to slaughter someone on the alter of your bitterness . . . then I'm your goat.
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Caedus on the skiff is a pretty scary proposition.
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Being "removed from the battle grid" and "removed from play" are not the same. Characters "removed from play" are defeated. For instance, Tactics Broker -"Remove that character from play; that character is defeated." Transported characters or those "removed from the battle grid" are still in play and activate normally on their turn(s). Desert Skiff, Troop Cart, Meditation Sphere, Mount, ect.. "consider" transported allies adjacent but are still "removed from the battle grid" and activate. Activation in glossary terms does not require board presence or any assumed position on the battle grid for activation to occur. All characters in play must activate at some point each round, even those "removed from the battle grid." Large Transport doesn't say transported characters do not; count as in play, activate, or use Force Powers. It says they're not considered on the battle grid or adjacent. Cannot be targeted, attacked, make attacks or count distance from the Skiff. They lose Disciplined Leader, and their commander effects, special abilities and Force abilities are suppressed. Force abilities are Force powers which remain in effect beyond a character's turn. So you can't use, Advanced Battle Meditation, Force Meditation, or Force Barrier while riding a Large Transport. However, you can use Force powers like Force Renewal #, Force Sense, Anticipation . . . ect. I get the confusion. Transports, especially in past years haven't seen much play. It's as if no one used gallop for years and suddenly someone brought Kybuck to a tournament. It's easy to see why the rules might seem unclear in such a situation. Compounding the problem, Jim's initial design for Barada was for transported allies to not activate. However, it caused rules problems and ran counter to how transported characters are normally played so was later changed. It would have been nice to have been able to clarify on the card that transported allies can activate and use "regular?" Force Powers normally, even though no other Transport contains such wording, but there just wasn't any space on the card for additional text. I'm glad we can get that clarification in the glossary. The intent for the piece was as a useful transport to help Force users safely cross the board. It seemed important Force users be able to Force Renewal and Reroll while on a Large Transport. Otherwise, no one would ever use it for Force users as it could become a death trap, as Juiceman apparently proved. I couldn't believe when Juice told me he lost Caedus off the Skiff twice! I thought he must be the most unlucky die roller in mini's history. I feel bad for you guys, hopefully this gets other players aware so they won't make the same mistake.
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DarkDracul wrote:Being "removed from the battle grid" and "removed from play" are not the same. Characters "removed from play" are defeated. For instance, Tactics Broker -"Remove that character from play; that character is defeated." Transported characters or those "removed from the battle grid" are still in play and activate normally on their turn(s). Desert Skiff, Troop Cart, Meditation Sphere, Mount, ect.. "consider" transported allies adjacent but are still "removed from the battle grid" and activate. Activation in glossary terms does not require board presence or any assumed position on the battle grid for activation to occur. All characters in play must activate at some point each round, even those "removed from the battle grid." Large Transport doesn't say transported characters do not; count as in play, activate, or use Force Powers. It says they're not considered on the battle grid or adjacent. Cannot be targeted, attacked, make attacks or count distance from the Skiff. They lose Disciplined Leader, and their commander effects, special abilities and Force abilities are suppressed. Force abilities are Force powers which remain in effect beyond a character's turn. So you can't use, Advanced Battle Meditation, Force Meditation, or Force Barrier while riding a Large Transport. However, you can use Force powers like Force Renewal #, Force Sense, Anticipation . . . ect. I get the confusion. Transports, especially in past years haven't seen much play. It's as if no one used gallop for years and suddenly someone brought Kybuck to a tournament. It's easy to see why the rules might seem unclear in such a situation. Compounding the problem, Jim's initial design for Barada was for transported allies to not activate. However, it caused rules problems and ran counter to how transported characters are normally played so was later changed. It would have been nice to have been able to clarify on the card that transported allies can activate and use "regular?" Force Powers normally, even though no other Transport contains such wording, but there just wasn't any space on the card for additional text. I'm glad we can get that clarification in the glossary. The intent for the piece was as a useful transport to help Force users safely cross the board. It seemed important Force users be able to Force Renewal and Reroll while on a Large Transport. Otherwise, no one would ever use it for Force users as it could become a death trap, as Juiceman apparently proved. I couldn't believe when Juice told me he lost Caedus off the Skiff twice! I thought he must be the most unlucky die roller in mini's history. I feel bad for you guys, hopefully this gets other players aware so they won't make the same mistake. I'm feeling an awkward moment coming here... Wasn't the argument against equipment that they couldn't activate or anything? And that they needed a "Physical presence". Yet if you take note to the Bold Underlined , and italicized quote, the glossary term for the actual game, states the opposite.... So which is it?
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DarkDracul wrote:
I couldn't believe when Juice told me he lost Caedus off the Skiff twice! I thought he must be the most unlucky die roller in mini's history. I feel bad for you guys, hopefully this gets other players aware so they won't make the same mistake.
Nope, Shawn is the most unlucky roller.
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shmi15 wrote:I'm feeling an awkward moment coming here... Wasn't the argument against equipment that they couldn't activate or anything? And that they needed a "Physical presence". Yet if you take note to the Bold Underlined , and italicized quote, the glossary term for the actual game, states the opposite.... So which is it? I never said a transported character doesn't require a "physical presence" i.e. (a miniature) to activate. Darkdracul wrote:Activation in glossary terms does not require board presence or any assumed position on the battle grid for activation to occur. Activation in Glossary Terms doesn't talk about being on the board, but it's pretty clear about an activation being performed by a character (miniature). Glossary Terms wrote:
activate/activation
A character's move or turn. A character can activate only once in a round. A character counts as activated immediately when a player chooses to activate it, before it actually takes its turn.
A character being transported has a physical presence (a miniature). It is "removed from the battle grid" and represented by a character whose special ability defines how they interact on the battle grid. Some transported characters like w/ Mount have a great deal of board presence and behave as they would normally on their turn; other transported characters like w/ Meditation Sphere have minimal board presence and do little besides activate and go along for the ride. However, they're still characters (miniatures) with a physical presence who activate and have some type of presence on the board. Unless you're Juiceman and can't make a Save 6 to return to the battle grid.  Star Wars Miniatures is a miniatures game. Every card in the game is a stat block/ special rules set for a character i.e. (a miniature) you can play in the game. Personally, I'd just prefer to keep it that way.
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