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billiv15 wrote:owaller3 wrote:billiv15 wrote: Lol, what a hypocrite. This is exactly why making judgements about other players based on legal actions is so ridiculous. It's ok if you do it, but if your opponent's do it, "Shame, shame on them". Lol
I guess you should have spent more time practicing your counter tactics then, and you would have had a better time playing. Thank you for calling me a hypocrite. No on is judging anyone but you. I am merely stating the obvious that slow cannon is boring to play against. The opponent has the activation advantage and simply waits out till the end of the round. It is on them to act not me. I would win if they do nothing since I have Yobuck in gambit. Slow cannon simply sits back and waits till the opponent presents a target. Even so I would position my pieces until everything is in range for me to make a move. Usually 3rd round. And what I meant by make a move with the speeder is that it doesn't block my way in with Yobuck. Lastly, I did practice and like I explained it comes down to one init roll which I lost 3 times to 1. I didn't think everyone would run the same squad. Just don't criticize players for using legal pieces and tactics. That was my entire point. You are welcome not to enjoy it, but leave the judgment out of it. And by the way, I am not judging you, you yourself made the contradiction. Moving on, I also tried to show you that the way you described it was not universal. Unfortunately, I am not sure who you played. I didn't play you, at least I don't think I did. So I can't really comment on those games. But as I said, I was not playing it at all as you described. I was attacking round 1-2 at the latest, and only 2 of my games the entire 2 days went to time. Round 7 vs James, and the finals vs Deri. Every other game, I scored the victory points well before time (or killed my opponent's offensive pieces and would have scored well within time so they conceded). I know there were others at the top tables playing more like I was as well. Nathan played his Cannon very similarly, and was usually killing something nasty in the first round with his Speeder, Leia, Bothan combo. Point is, what you have said, may have been true for your games (and I have no reason to doubt it), but it isn't an accurate picture of the tournament, or of the top tables as you have described it to be. I am not criticizing anyone I am merely explaining how play against slow cannon is boring. It is the nature of the squad. Play against it with a yobuck squad and you will see what I mean.
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owaller3 wrote:I am not criticizing anyone I am merely explaining how play against slow cannon is boring. It is the nature of the squad. Play against it with a yobuck squad and you will see what I mean. I did, about 15 times in the last month or so. Most of them against Dnemiller. And oddly, never found it boring or repetitive. Dean did different things to me almost every game, with varying degrees of luck on it. The same was true of my experiences with Slow Cannon this weekend. Every game I did different things, and had to combat my opponent differently. You have just been generalizing the entire tournament, based on your interpretation of your 4 games. Mine were not that way. So I was offering a counter point.
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LoboStele wrote:
If they ALL played Mandos, then we would've seen Mandos at the top tables. :P
I don't think you would see as many mandos at the top tables as we did speeders. That's a stretch.
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owaller3 wrote:LoboStele wrote:
If they ALL played Mandos, then we would've seen Mandos at the top tables. :P
I don't think you would see as many mandos at the top tables as we did speeders. That's a stretch. I totally agree with owaller on this one.
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billiv15 wrote:owaller3 wrote:I am not criticizing anyone I am merely explaining how play against slow cannon is boring. It is the nature of the squad. Play against it with a yobuck squad and you will see what I mean. I did, about 15 times in the last month or so. Most of them against Dnemiller. And oddly, never found it boring or repetitive. Dean did different things to me almost every game, with varying degrees of luck on it. The same was true of my experiences with Slow Cannon this weekend. Every game I did different things, and had to combat my opponent differently. You have just been generalizing the entire tournament, based on your interpretation of your 4 games. Mine were not that way. So I was offering a counter point. Well, maybe you have a higher threshold for pain. Anyways congrats on 2nd place.
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owaller3 wrote:Well, maybe you have a higher threshold for pain. Anyways congrats on 2nd place. hehe, maybe. I will say this, I spent weeks trying to find something other than a slow cannon variant to play this year. I even went so far as to be willing to not place as high as I could to run a B&B type squad just to see what I could do with it. But in the end (read friday night at 2AM) I decided I really wanted to win it again, or at least compete and went with what I knew gave me the best chance. Note, I did not say the strongest, just gave me the best chance. I knew I would face a lot of Teth and Taris, and I didn't want to lose 25% of my games to map rolls (I was 50/50 on Teth and Taris with the B&B variant against Slow Cannon). With Slow Cannon myself, I could take control of it, and playing mirrors is where skill variances show up quite highly. Obviously, dice play a factor, but I felt I could win most mirrors, so dropping my odds from 25% losses on Taris/Teth, to maybe 5-10%, I don't know. Anyways, I wasn't thrilled about it either, I like playing something a little different as well. I looked for it for weeks, and just didn't find anything I was happy enough with to try it.
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Oh and I forgot, Mandos was one of the squads that did well against the cannon, provided you won map.
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billiv15 wrote:Oh and I forgot, Mandos was one of the squads that did well against the cannon, provided you won map. HA see i told you guys.
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No offense to Owaller, but I believe the issue is your playstyle. From how you describe your games and strategies, you are a VERY deliberate player. You hate any risk to your pieces. So naturally, tempo squads would be unfun for you to play against, which is sort of ironic, since that is your strategy. That is probably where Billiv got his source of hypocrasy, you don't seem to like the same strategies you use used against you.
We all have different playstyles. I tend to vary wildly between very careful (why San drew me in in the first place) and aggressive (I HATE timed games where nothing really significant happens).
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LoboStele wrote:
I'm sure there are ways to win with that Mando squad, I just don't see it happening. Mandos weren't even close to a factor in the Championships this year. Mandos were awesome against the Speeder last year, but the Rebels gained Mobile + Evade since then. That just obliterates the Mando's power, IMO.
I think you hit it there. You can win with the Mando squad, odds are just against you, especially with the advent of the whole cannon squad having Mobile+Evade.
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Sithborg wrote:No offense to Owaller, but I believe the issue is your playstyle. From how you describe your games and strategies, you are a VERY deliberate player. You hate any risk to your pieces. So naturally, tempo squads would be unfun for you to play against, which is sort of ironic, since that is your strategy. That is probably where Billiv got his source of hypocrasy, you don't seem to like the same strategies you use used against you.
We all have different playstyles. I tend to vary wildly between very careful (why San drew me in in the first place) and aggressive (I HATE timed games where nothing really significant happens). Ok Scott I always wondered what your love of San was but after reading that and knowing that you probably play just like my oldest son (who I turned to San for having a similar playstyle). Funny how he is a good choice for some players and can really imrove their game over time.
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billiv15 wrote:owaller3 wrote:Well, maybe you have a higher threshold for pain. Anyways congrats on 2nd place. hehe, maybe. I will say this, I spent weeks trying to find something other than a slow cannon variant to play this year. I even went so far as to be willing to not place as high as I could to run a B&B type squad just to see what I could do with it. But in the end (read friday night at 2AM) I decided I really wanted to win it again, or at least compete and went with what I knew gave me the best chance. Note, I did not say the strongest, just gave me the best chance. I knew I would face a lot of Teth and Taris, and I didn't want to lose 25% of my games to map rolls (I was 50/50 on Teth and Taris with the B&B variant against Slow Cannon). With Slow Cannon myself, I could take control of it, and playing mirrors is where skill variances show up quite highly. Obviously, dice play a factor, but I felt I could win most mirrors, so dropping my odds from 25% losses on Taris/Teth, to maybe 5-10%, I don't know. Anyways, I wasn't thrilled about it either, I like playing something a little different as well. I looked for it for weeks, and just didn't find anything I was happy enough with to try it. I contemplated playing it myself but like I said I was burnt out on tempo control. So I went with Yobuck knowing it was at a disadvantage against slow cannon.However, I didn't anticipate slow cannon being so popular. It was kind of like showing up to a wedding wearing a t-shirt.
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Sithborg wrote:No offense to Owaller, but I believe the issue is your playstyle. From how you describe your games and strategies, you are a VERY deliberate player. You hate any risk to your pieces. So naturally, tempo squads would be unfun for you to play against, which is sort of ironic, since that is your strategy. That is probably where Billiv got his source of hypocrasy, you don't seem to like the same strategies you use used against you.
We all have different playstyles. I tend to vary wildly between very careful (why San drew me in in the first place) and aggressive (I HATE timed games where nothing really significant happens). I play quite the opposite I sacrifice pieces if I can cripple a squad and that was the strategy sacrifice yobuck to kill leia and put dmg on the rest of the pieces. As a side note have you ever played a match with two tempo squads on the train station?
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Let me just ask you a simple question Owaller.
How could you not anticipate so many Speedy/Slow Cannon squads?
I started playing minis in between the KOTOR and CW sets, so for almost a year now and I knew for a fact that Rebel Toolbox squads (Specifically Speedy/Slow Cannon or whatever you wanna call it) would not only win Gencon, but dominate it all together.
As a noob I knew this, and knew that traversing the country to play my precious Yobuck/Rex swap against them wouldn't pay off.
I knew I would end up just as angry and frustrated as you. So I saved myself the headache.
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I will just say this about the tournament. Call me superstitious, but I hated that black die they gave us to use. I lost the first round game by 5 points, 5!!!! Out of nine 11+ saves that I rolled for, I didn't make a single one!
That and Dash couldn't hit anything. I had a bead on his Rieekan with Opprotunist going, and I didn't land a single hit needing 9's. I don't mind losing because I was outplayed or of a stupid mistake I made. But the utter horrible die rolling was killing me.
And it wasn't just the first round. The 2nd round I had a shot on an uggy with Han Smuggler needing anything but a 1. First go around, I missed. Then using Princess Leia's CE, I missed again.....
I went 0-3 before I dropped. I wasn't having fun anymore and didn't see the point of continuing. I was glad to meet some of the guys that post on here or the WOTC forums, but the Dice Gods decided to punish me that day.
Sincerely,
Jester007
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o man, that blows!! why cant you use yer own D20? do people actually have rigged dice? 
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LandShark wrote:Let me just ask you a simple question Owaller.
How could you not anticipate so many Speedy/Slow Cannon squads?
I started playing minis in between the KOTOR and CW sets, so for almost a year now and I knew for a fact that Rebel Toolbox squads (Specifically Speedy/Slow Cannon or whatever you wanna call it) would not only win Gencon, but dominate it all together.
As a noob I knew this, and knew that traversing the country to play my precious Yobuck/Rex swap against them wouldn't pay off.
I knew I would end up just as angry and frustrated as you. So I saved myself the headache. Call it wishful thinking.
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Blah, I tried reading through this topic, but I got bored after the first page...
GenCon is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. I'll be honest with y'all: the weekend, as a whole, is a bigger excitement than Christmas morning... Playing against the best gamers from all over North America? Thats a great opportunity, even if you face seven Snowspeeders and go 0-7.
@ Landshark: Its not the squad that dominates, its the players.
I said this over on Gleemax before it went down, but what would we be saying if the top sixteen players at GenCon all ran Mara/Kyle/Wedge squads? Would the Top Eight have changed? Would we claim we saw it coming, since its all the top players had been using to win those regionals?
What if you were running a Speedy (Slow, whatever y'all are calling it) Cannon squad, and lost to Deri/Aaron/Frank/other-Aaron/Bill/Nathan/Eric/Phillip, running a Yobuck/Rex squad? Would that be the "top squad" because it kept beating the Snowspeeder?
That being said, I'm going to let you in on a secret about the Landspeeder; There were two (I'm 99% sure it was only two, but maybe three) on Saturday. Two Landspeeder squads, out of eighty-two participants. Its not a "variant", but a solid counter and squad of its own. If anything, all Snowspeeder squads are variants on the Landspeeder squad that placed second at GenCon two years ago ;)
@ Mandalore Da Beast: Yeah, the D20's are supplied to prevent cheating -unintentional or otherwise-...
@ Jester007: I believe you can always use your opponents die, if yours isn't working out for you, but I might be wrong! :)
Before I forget:
Aaron went 7-0, five other players (Frank, Bill, Nathan, Eric, Aaron -- in no particular order...) went 6-1 and Deri and I both slid in the back, going 5-2.
I realize everything had calmed down, but I just wanted to set things straight and stir up some trouble! ;)
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LandShark wrote:Im glad I didnt waste my time going to GenCon. Speedy Cannon is too dominant for me to traverse the country to play Speedy Cannon 4 out of 7 rounds of swiss.
Can you say boring? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
I am very happy to see Yobuck in the top. He is my favorite, and what I would have used if I attended GenCon. I played 6 out of 7 rounds and never faced a Speeder squad. I had a Speeder squad, but I didn't hear anyone complaining about it being boring. Most of my games were fun, and I had a great time playing despite my 3-3 record for the day. 
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I wasn't even at GenCon and I'm excied hearing the stories that went on there. I know personally 2 people that went. It sounds like a blast and no matter what it would have been exciting. Yeah it would be a bad day if I lost over bad die rolls but, I still would have had fun over all.
It just seems crazy, though, to constantly argue over people being better or worse based on hear-say. If you think you have a winning squad and stratogy then, bring it out and go with it. Let the neggative remarks go. It is, by the way, the way of the jedi. lol
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