I apologize for my first post in this thread.
I misread the data, and over re-acted.

as Alex, my fellow droog would say" appy poly wogies"

(goes back to listen to Ludwig Van)

But you will ignore any evidence that proves you wrong. People have presented lots of reasons the BHC pieces aren't bad and lots of ways to beat them, but you still insist that you're right and everyone else is wrong. You did the same thing with the Mace argument; you ignored every Regional that Mace squads failed to do well at, but when he finally won one you claimed that you were right all along and that it proved that Mace was sooo good. When a Mace squad won GenCon you ignored that the player who won with him was arguably the best player at the tournament (and indisputably one of the best) so he should have won regardless of what he was playing. You also ignored that lots of other people played Mace at GenCon and didn't do so well; as well as the fact that many of the Mace counters weren't played so the specific meta was ripe for him to win.

You've shown that when you believe something to be true you'll be insistent on it until the end, even when there is plenty of evidence pointing to the contrary and even when no one agrees with you. You only care about your own personal experience or evidence that supports you, and disbelieve anyone that claims otherwise.

That isn't to say that discussion about stuff being broken is bad (I'll rant about the stuff that I think has been done poorly if I'm asked), it's just how I view your arguments on the matter.


All that is probably a little more true about the BHC thread than this one. For what it's worth, Satele IS a great piece, and probably undercosted a bit. Removing MotF 2 or starting her with a single FP would make her more inline with her cost. She isn't a huge problem though, and the meta isn't going to warp around her or anything. She's just a strong piece, which there are plenty of in every faction. No more, no less.

I ignore evidence when they are theories sure, when you give me examples, I will listen. As for Mace so what if he was used by one of the best players, I said all along he was amazingly strong in the hands of an awesome player. Of course other people did bad with them but if i remember everyone says Storm Commandos are awesome and they went 0-3 with a good player playing them... so whats your point? Every squad can do good and bad depends on the person using it, squad it is playing against.
What do I care if anyone agrees with me almost everyone said MACE was overrated and not a good piece (including you) and he won gencon... Looks like I was right, regardless of who was the one using him I was right in the end.
I have encouraged everyone to prove me wrong Daniel, I have invited People to play me and I will use Sidious against them, David Weeks has accepted and after we play if he has proven me wrong I will gladly admit that I am wrong, but until someone Proves it I don't care what you say and what you believe, when I am the one on here that has played him the most and have actual examples to back up what I have been saying and all you can say is WHAT HAPPENS IF..... dont tell me what happens if tell me THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED WHEN....

Edit: Daniel did do a playtest with Sidious, just could not give a lot of info due to the squad he ran being a suprise for tournaments, I can't really gain any knowledge from his playtest because of the lack of information on the game other then he ran New Republic and beat sidious, but I do want to thank Daniel for at least playing the piece.

In my playgroup, just after Scum and Villainy came out, there was a conversation to the effect that players who previously weren't very interested in Old Republic, and found them mundane, feel that Satele Shan is an exciting boost that makes them worth playing. I don't want to speak for all of New Zealand (we have Kezzamachine to do that) but we generally like her.

Satele has potential to win GenCon next year - she is a really good piece after all. But I think it's only a problem if half of the top 8 are Satele squads.

And now back to Daniel ( I love you Daniel, but sometimes you say things without thinking me thinks)

We won't admit when were wrong? These pieces haven't even hit a tourney yet, so every bit of HARD evidence either of us has is complete and udder garbage.

All we have done is raise concern about what we have seen, and you have countered it with what you have seen. So this is a dog catching his tail argument until someone accepts Trevors challenge to play these pieces, besides Weeks, in which he is a kind and loving man.

And Daniel... You realize we have admitted that Naboo Pilots and other gimmicks beat these guys, and that Black and Blue probably beats it ( I'm the one who isn't so sure about that) BUT..... The one thing that has not happened, is YOU have yet to tell me and Trevor YOU WERE WRONG about Mace Windu, you keep throwing the same argument, Mace didn't play this, he was played by this guy, what about the Mace squads that didn't do good, blah, blah blah. The point, which we were very clear about, is in the hands of an unskilled player, he is ok, in the hands of a good player, he is AWESOME! So, when you can admit to us you were wrong, I will kindly repay the favor IF, and only IF, these 2 pieces turn out to be nothing but us over reacting...

...... I'm waiting.

And last.... Sorry for this again, but pieces setting a goal for future pieces.


OK.... Lets just look at some issues I see for future designs.

Seps- Every single Beat stick, every good shooter, now has to be created with the thought of it having the absolute best defense against shooters, for only 19 points.... And the piece has stealth.... You don't think that is going to have an impact in this game?

OR- Ok, this is almost laughable but, if you want a different shooter, outclass Atton or Carth..... If you want a better melee interference, beat out Satele.... a Parrying MOTF2 and Mettle fool... Still no? Ok, well, throw Bastila into this mix now, and we will see how tough it is to replace them. Now, I will say you could use only Carth OR Atton, and swing in a new piece there, but even that will have to be done with either some undercosting piece... Or a BHC OR piece

Republic- Easily the best 1-2 punch in the game with the un nerfing of GOWK, and the emergence of MWLOTLS. So, now, to replace them, well, you can't. Naboo Troopers can be used instead of them, but if that era just died out I really would be to hurt by it. But now, ANY shooter that is brought into this faction has to be concerned with these pieces and how they will interact with them.

These are just 3 factions that really stand out to me. I could go on, but I feel it is unnecessary to do so... Unless you guys want me to


I will end this part of my conversation with a simple question that I have been asking for ever since I started playing this game... Can we start banning pieces?

I'm not going to go too deeply into this, because it's well off-topic, but both shmi15 and Deaths_Baine are presenting the Mace discussion unfairly. I never said that a good player couldn't do well with him (I don't think anyone else did either, but I only want to speak for myself). I said he was more of a tier 1.5 piece as opposed to a tier 1 piece, and that he was being overrated by many people. I have yet to be proven wrong. The squad that won GenCon had lots of tier 1 pieces in addition to Mace: GOWK, an easily tier 1 piece; R2 Astromech Droid, arguably the best piece in the entire game; Captain Rex, arguably the best shooter in the entire game; Lobot, another one of the best pieces in the game. The squad didn't work based on Mace alone, so the squad doing well doesn't prove that Mace is tier 1.

Like I said, I don't want to go deeply into it, but my claim that Mace is a tier 1.5 piece and is overrated hasn't been disproven. Heck, I think Cad Bane is a very overrated piece, but people do well with him too. Your arguments didn't answer my point: that he wasn't quite tier 1. You seem to think that you said "Hey Mace isn't a bad piece and a good player could do well with him!" and everyone else said "No that piece sucks!". That isn't what happened, and implying that is disingenuous and dishonest.




Of course that isn't how it works. Once again, this is an issue of being on the outside looking in. Already for V-set 6 the designers from #5 have talked with us (us being the set 6 designers) about what they are doing in their set and how it could effect our designs. We work together quite well, despite that you seem to think that we don't. I give input on every Zann Consortium or SpecForce characters that are made now, since I helped introduce them to the game by designing the first two SpecForce characters in Vengeance as well as Tyber Zann and the Zann Consortium Defiler. If there is a specific theme we want to introduce over multiple sets, we make it clear to the other designers and everyone works to keep the integrity of that design as intact as possible. Obviously everyone has input on it and can tweak it as we feel is necessary, but otherwise we try to make sure that there is continuity from set to set.

I don't see the big deal about Mace; he's pretty amazing at 100 and 150 points, but at 200 he's just one of lots of good options. He's a powerful piece, but hardly broken.

i) When Windu was designed and play-tested, GOWK was neutered without full Soresu Style Mastery. UrbanShmi's General Skywalker build was pretty neat, but the only Mace squads that won Regionals and made the top 8 at GenCon all contained GOWK. Without GOWK he's less strong in my opinion; GOWK means that he's much more robust against heavy shooter squads.

ii) Mace was the most popular build at Regionals, but he only won 4 (and two of his wins were in tiny Regionals, Delaware and Vassal), and he only made the top 4 a couple of extra times. To only make the top 4 six times was underwhelming, given that every man and his dog was running him. All the Mace winning was done by a couple of players, Hinkbert and TINT, who obviously mastered him.

iii) As Echo just explained, good Mace counters like Naboo Pilots and Storm Commandos didn't make the top 8 at GenCon, so the field was open for Mace to do well once he made the top 8, especially when run by a good player like TINT. In our New Zealand National champs, there were 3 Mace squads but none made it into the top 4 - in that tournament the Naboo Pilots and the Storm Commandos, both good Mace counters, contested the final.



The Gungan Shieldbearer's been round for ages and it hasn't broken the game. I don't think Stealth makes that much difference, although the extra 20 HP on the Spotter is handy.

If I had adamant insights about which pieces were broken and overpowered, I'd keep them to myself until GenCon and then go ahead and win it.

...You realize we do this with EVERY faction, right? And, in fact, do it with every piece! When designing we take into account everything in the game, and always have. If your argument is that now there are more good pieces for us to think about and compare stuff to when designing, then yeah, that's totally true. But that was true before, especially for factions like Republic. Every Republic piece needs to be tested and compared to R2 Astromech Droid, or GOWK, or Yobuck, or General Skywalker, or Panaka, or whatever. Every Separatist piece needs to be tested with and compared to Whorm Loathsome, Darth Sidious, Lancers, Battle Droid Officer, and so on. It makes Fringe pieces really hard to design! Adding more good pieces to the game by no means creates this problem, nor does it meaningfully exacerbate it, since it's something we had to do to an extreme extent before.

Every new piece, good or bad, has to be considered in future design. Better pieces will have bigger a bigger impact. This is a fact of game design in general.

@TheHutts: +100 to your last post. Great info (consisting of real data that proves the point beyond a shadow of a doubt) .

I personally dont like Mace (especially when I have to play against him) but he clearly isnt thr end all be all in swm othetwise he would have made up a considerably higher percentage of the top 8 squadd at Gencon.