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Demosthenes
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:30:13 AM
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Just so my opinion is very clearly known, 15 points for Gambit is WAY TOO HIGH. My main piece was untouched by the end of the game, yet he still won. Credit to SYM for doing so well and winning, but Gambit being worth that much is just ridiculous.
creme_brule
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:31:46 AM
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UPDATED 7/15

I have a couple questions for you all.

After watching a game between two players, I noticed that they didn't quite like the idea of 15-pt gambit. What is the issue with this? Is it too hard to get characters in the gambit zone worth 15+, or it speeds up the game TOO much (lol), etc.? Just want to get a feel for what you think about this so I can make some changes maybe by next week.

Also, I am thinking about giving all losers 1 pt by default. Seems like all games are being fully completed so there's always a tie for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lol. Giving losers 1 pt by default should help maybe even up some odds.

Anyways, thanks guys, and as always (SYM I'm looking at you again) PM me or post any questions you may have.
Demosthenes
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:37:59 AM
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It speeds up the game way too much. I had 63 points worth of characters left, he had 18. I lost. By all rights I should have won.
creme_brule
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:53:46 AM
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Demosthenes wrote:
It speeds up the game way too much. I had 63 points worth of characters left, he had 18. I lost. By all rights I should have won.


So maybe lower it back to the normal 5 pts? Or maybe 10? I think no gambit at all is out of the question.
Demosthenes
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 8:00:49 AM
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Well unfortunately I think it should be kept as-is for this League. Changing mid-season would be bad. My solution would've been to ban Override, but whatever. I just think for future leagues, you should be aware that 15 points of gambit per round is ludicrous.
R5Don4
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 8:52:34 AM
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I for one really think the 15 pts for gambit for this league is a good thing. The 15 pt minimum on a character eligible to collect it keeps it from being out of control. Things move naturally move a slower pace with these old sets and I think boosted gambit helps the games from dragging out too long.

It does what it is supposed to do forces characters to engage and gives a huge incentive to get in and hold scoring position.
Demosthenes
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:18:37 AM
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I disagree that things move slower in these older games. If it weren't for the Vassal medium, I'd get all my games done in under an hour. I just think the 15-point gambit increase was a clumsy work-around the fact that there were pieces with Override and no Satchel Charge in early games. My solution: ban override.
creme_brule
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:32:24 AM
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Demosthenes wrote:
I disagree that things move slower in these older games. If it weren't for the Vassal medium, I'd get all my games done in under an hour. I just think the 15-point gambit increase was a clumsy work-around the fact that there were pieces with Override and no Satchel Charge in early games. My solution: ban override.

So what exactly is the issue? Gambit itself or Override preventing from getting to Gambit?
Demosthenes
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:42:51 AM
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I've not faced Override so I can't speak to its problems in this format. I have a big problem with 15 point gambit. You figure 5 points per round in a standard 200 point match nets you 2.5% of the total Victory Points per round. 15 points per round and you're making 10% of the Victory Points EACH round. I just don't think that handing over that many points is conducive to a good game. Like in my scenario with SuperYodaMan, all he had left were two pot-shotters, and I had a full HP main beat. It just doesn't make sense that I would lose in that scenario.
creme_brule
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:45:17 AM
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Demosthenes wrote:
I've not faced Override so I can't speak to its problems in this format. I have a big problem with 15 point gambit. You figure 5 points per round in a standard 200 point match nets you 2.5% of the total Victory Points per round. 15 points per round and you're making 10% of the Victory Points EACH round. I just don't think that handing over that many points is conducive to a good game. Like in my scenario with SuperYodaMan, all he had left were two pot-shotters, and I had a full HP main beat. It just doesn't make sense that I would lose in that scenario.


Mhm. I see your point. So what's the deal with Override. I think if/when I do another league next year, I'll down it to 10 if it's a 200 point one, or just normal 5 if it's 100-150. (Note: post all the problems you have with the league so I can fix it for the next one!)
theDaRkLoRdoftheSiTh
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:56:37 AM
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how do you guys do this?
EmporerDragon
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:41:59 AM
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I'd say keep the gambit at 5pts. Override should be the only thing nerfed. I'd make it so you can't Override the same door twice.
SuperYodaMan
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 1:14:42 PM
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Demosthenes wrote:
I've not faced Override so I can't speak to its problems in this format. I have a big problem with 15 point gambit. You figure 5 points per round in a standard 200 point match nets you 2.5% of the total Victory Points per round. 15 points per round and you're making 10% of the Victory Points EACH round. I just don't think that handing over that many points is conducive to a good game. Like in my scenario with SuperYodaMan, all he had left were two pot-shotters, and I had a full HP main beat. It just doesn't make sense that I would lose in that scenario.

I have to agree here. While this 15 point Gambit scoring does make games faster and forces you to engage pieces, I think it makes the game go a little too fast and normal gambit forces you to engage anyway. The only thing such a high-scoring gambit does is make you ignore most figures under 15 points to take out your opponent's figures that can score gambit, even if it's not necessarily the most tactically advisable. I also agree with Demos on that such high gambit scoring does sometimes prove to make unfair situations like he described earlier. Truth be told, the turn immediately after I killed one of his figures which gave me enough points to win, he killed the my figure that had been sitting on gambit the whole game, and it was the last figure I had that was capable of scoring gambit. In a normal format, if our game had been played exactly the same that it was, dice rolls and all, there's no way I would have won. The only reason I did is because I had a figure with a huge amount of HP sitting on gambit, with me betting on his attacks missing just long enough for me to collect the gambit points I needed. On the same token, I don't necessarily believe that 5 points for gambit is enough for this format. With squads only 75% the size of normal DCI tournament squads, I think gambit should be worth slightly more than normal, like 10 points in this format. That way, gambit is easier for both sides to get, and it doesn't factor into the game nearly as heavily. I don't think this should be changed halfway through the league, though.

I also disagree with nerfing Override. In this format, there are only 3 figures with override: R2 from RS, Lobot from RS, and R2 from RotS. All three of these figures are R/VR, and really their only purpose is for Override. If you nerfed Override, you'd be essentially taking away a player's rare figure from their pulls for the week if they got one of these three figures. Besides, if you nerfed Override, you'd have to do the same for Door Gimmick. Nerfing abilities in a booster league is unfair in my opinion. If anything, I'd say no Mas Amedda, Mouse Droids, GOWK, Boba BH, or Cad Bane.
plokoon9619
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 2:01:03 PM
Rank: Flash Speeder
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Joined: 5/22/2011
Posts: 41
Emperor vs Plokoo9619
Winner Emperor
53/167 Gambit
Starship(ROTS starter map)

We both pick Universe.
theDaRkLoRdoftheSiTh
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 2:44:29 PM
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Joined: 1/8/2011
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do u guys do this over the web?
creme_brule
Posted: Saturday, July 16, 2011 3:12:26 PM
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@DarkLordofthesith: Yea; we use VASSAL to play these games. Check out the tutorial in the Sticky thread in these VASSAL sub-forums.

SuperYodaMan wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
I've not faced Override so I can't speak to its problems in this format. I have a big problem with 15 point gambit. You figure 5 points per round in a standard 200 point match nets you 2.5% of the total Victory Points per round. 15 points per round and you're making 10% of the Victory Points EACH round. I just don't think that handing over that many points is conducive to a good game. Like in my scenario with SuperYodaMan, all he had left were two pot-shotters, and I had a full HP main beat. It just doesn't make sense that I would lose in that scenario.

I have to agree here. While this 15 point Gambit scoring does make games faster and forces you to engage pieces, I think it makes the game go a little too fast and normal gambit forces you to engage anyway. The only thing such a high-scoring gambit does is make you ignore most figures under 15 points to take out your opponent's figures that can score gambit, even if it's not necessarily the most tactically advisable. I also agree with Demos on that such high gambit scoring does sometimes prove to make unfair situations like he described earlier. Truth be told, the turn immediately after I killed one of his figures which gave me enough points to win, he killed the my figure that had been sitting on gambit the whole game, and it was the last figure I had that was capable of scoring gambit. In a normal format, if our game had been played exactly the same that it was, dice rolls and all, there's no way I would have won. The only reason I did is because I had a figure with a huge amount of HP sitting on gambit, with me betting on his attacks missing just long enough for me to collect the gambit points I needed. On the same token, I don't necessarily believe that 5 points for gambit is enough for this format. With squads only 75% the size of normal DCI tournament squads, I think gambit should be worth slightly more than normal, like 10 points in this format. That way, gambit is easier for both sides to get, and it doesn't factor into the game nearly as heavily. I don't think this should be changed halfway through the league, though.

I also disagree with nerfing Override. In this format, there are only 3 figures with override: R2 from RS, Lobot from RS, and R2 from RotS. All three of these figures are R/VR, and really their only purpose is for Override. If you nerfed Override, you'd be essentially taking away a player's rare figure from their pulls for the week if they got one of these three figures. Besides, if you nerfed Override, you'd have to do the same for Door Gimmick. Nerfing abilities in a booster league is unfair in my opinion. If anything, I'd say no Mas Amedda, Mouse Droids, GOWK, Boba BH, or Cad Bane.


I would have to disagree wit you on a couple points. As for the OSBL; nerfing Override wouldnt make the characters (R2; Lobot) with them unplayable; just less competitive. R2 Astro even still would maintain his playability with Flight and Tow Cable. RS R2 still has Repair 10 (compare his stats to an R5 droid); and Lobot still has Reinforcements. Also; Door Gimmick is and never was a huge threat or meta option; so thats not really an issue.

As for Gambit; I think since we are not doing 200 point matches 5 pt gambit is fine. However; if the next league I did were to be 200; then I would probably consider bumping it to 10.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, July 17, 2011 1:57:30 AM
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plokoon9619 wrote:
Emperor vs Plokoo9619
Winner Emperor
53/167 Gambit
Starship(ROTS starter map)

We both pick Universe.


Confirmed. Vassal Dice were actually good to me, making me realize a cure: lose a large amount of money at the casino beforehand to absorb any bad luck.
plokoon9619
Posted: Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:47:05 AM
Rank: Flash Speeder
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/22/2011
Posts: 41
EmporerDragon wrote:
plokoon9619 wrote:
Emperor vs Plokoo9619
Winner Emperor
53/167 Gambit
Starship(ROTS starter map)

We both pick Universe.


Confirmed. Vassal Dice were actually good to me, making me realize a cure: lose a large amount of money at the casino beforehand to absorb any bad luck.


Your luck in dice rolls doesn't match the luck I just got with my new booster pull.
theDaRkLoRdoftheSiTh
Posted: Monday, July 18, 2011 6:06:48 AM
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Joined: 1/8/2011
Posts: 76
are you guys doing this online if so how?
cicrush13
Posted: Monday, July 18, 2011 6:12:57 AM
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Joined: 3/15/2009
Posts: 909
Location: Michigan
theDaRkLoRdoftheSiTh wrote:
are you guys doing this online if so how?


vassal is the online way to play star wars minis. You can build your squad and battle online. Look in the Vassal forum for the directions to download.
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