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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008 Posts: 396
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Eroschilles wrote:Disagree. There have been recessions and recoveries in the last 70+ years. Blaming fiscal and monetary policies from the 1930s does not explain the current crisis at all. I said that was where it all started, the effects we see now are more likely caused by the expansion of those policies in the nineties, if you had to blame one thing. Eroschillies wrote:Especially since the housing market greatly changed after WWII. Every president aimed to give veterans the opportunity to own their home for a period after the war, regardless if they were Democrat or Republican. I did not mention veterans, they deserve a home for their service to the country. I am talking more of the people on welfare, disability, and the people in extreme poverty that were given houses outside of their pay grade. It is fine for the government to provide housing for some, but too many puts a strain on the system. When Clinton expanded housing plans for the people already on social programs, he did just that. Eroschilles wrote:Carter was one of the most fiscally responsible democratic presidents. He reduced the spending, the economic hard times during the 1970s are a mixed result of international tensions and oil sales reductions to the U.S. on the part of OPEC. The key word in that is Democrat. Perhaps I should have said allowed instead of caused. Economic issues are never caused by one single person. However, nothing Carter did solved any problems. He is to blame for the hardships lasting as long as they did. And he did not reduce spending in the correct way. He took money from the defense budget (in the middle of a war) and put it into social programs. That is hardly saving money, especially since those social programs tend to grow over the years. The proof of Carter's ineffectiveness lies in Reagan's presidency. Reagan got our economy back on track and won the Cold War. Eroschillies wrote:Private banks were not forced to float loans to anyone, and Adjustable Rate Mortgages were the reason individuals struggled to pay their bills.The first year will have a low APR at about 6%, but then will increase to about 13%. This effectively increases a mortgage greatly. Banks aimed at lower income individuals themselves without provaction from the government to turn a bigger profit. Then they sold those loans as securities that were chopped up and repagaged later several times and resold. Then insurance firms like AIG sold insurance on those loans that were to be repaid by home owners, to be paid out in the event that the home onwers defualted. Which eventually occured due to intentional targeting of lower income individuals who could not afford to pay the mortgages in the long run. You are sorely mistaken. You may want to look at the Fair Housing Act and the Community Reinvestment Act. The Fair Housing Act prohibits a bank from refusing a loan based on many criteria including race, which is a good thing. But, it also classifies income level as a criteria. It would be considered discrimination for a bank to refuse a loan to a lower income individual. The Community Reinvestment Act was put forward to stop banks from specifically discriminating against people based upon race in mainly inner city commmunities, which is a good thing. The problem, again, is that refusing a loan to someone that cannot afford it was considered discrimination. So the government did force banks to float loans. The banks subsequently tried to turn a bigger profit after being forced into this situation. The way I see it, they were between a rock and a hard place. They could take hits on bad loans and eventually fail, or they could take advantage of the clients they were forced to take. Neither option is attractive. Eroschillies wrote:Who is more to blame for that is up to debate, the home owners purchasing loans they cannot afford or the bankers selling them the loans. So, its not the banks mostly who have the toxic assets, by other financial institutions who are now in trouble because of it. If the regulations hadn't been relaxed over the years, then banks wouldn't have been allowed to do shady loans. The financial institutions and bank regulations were also reduced when the required amounts of money they were supposed to hold in reserve were loosened. True, it is up to debate. I choose a third option, the government. They forced this, now we suffer. Yes, banks do not have the toxic assets anymore, they sold them off to unsuspecting companies to try and make a profit. If regulations had not been placed over the years, they would not be in the position to make shady deals. Lowering the reserve requirement can cause inflation, so I will agree that can be bad. In my opinion, the only thing that is under-regulated is a company's power to lobby politicians. I think evrything else is either over-regulated or just right. Eroschillies wrote:But that's just the housing market and financial sector problems. The economic crisis is compounded by several different markets. Blaming one just because it was the first to go seems a little silly to me. If it was any other market i would agree, but not this time. Our economy is so intertwined that anything that affects the banks will affect everything they have contact with, including other markets. Let me clarify my belief. What goes up must come down. Under Bush, we had amazing economic growth. A recession was inevitable. The problems with the housing and the banking exacerbated the issue. Eroschillies wrote:And to call the president a communist either means you don't know what a real communist is or you are just beeing loose with terms. To getting a better concept of real communism, read Das Kapital or some of Mao Zedong's works. The U.S. president may believe more social programs will ease economic problems, but that doesn't mean he's a commie. I was exaggerating. At this point, he is closer to socialist with a pinch of fascism.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 1/6/2009 Posts: 908 Location: Felucia, near the Ancient Abyss
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defender390 wrote:Eroschilles wrote:Disagree. There have been recessions and recoveries in the last 70+ years. Blaming fiscal and monetary policies from the 1930s does not explain the current crisis at all. I said that was where it all started, the effects we see now are more likely caused by the expansion of those policies in the nineties, if you had to blame one thing. Eroschillies wrote:Especially since the housing market greatly changed after WWII. Every president aimed to give veterans the opportunity to own their home for a period after the war, regardless if they were Democrat or Republican. I did not mention veterans, they deserve a home for their service to the country. I am talking more of the people on welfare, disability, and the people in extreme poverty that were given houses outside of their pay grade. It is fine for the government to provide housing for some, but too many puts a strain on the system. When Clinton expanded housing plans for the people already on social programs, he did just that. Eroschilles wrote:Carter was one of the most fiscally responsible democratic presidents. He reduced the spending, the economic hard times during the 1970s are a mixed result of international tensions and oil sales reductions to the U.S. on the part of OPEC. The key word in that is Democrat. Perhaps I should have said allowed instead of caused. Economic issues are never caused by one single person. However, nothing Carter did solved any problems. He is to blame for the hardships lasting as long as they did. And he did not reduce spending in the correct way. He took money from the defense budget (in the middle of a war) and put it into social programs. That is hardly saving money, especially since those social programs tend to grow over the years. The proof of Carter's ineffectiveness lies in Reagan's presidency. Reagan got our economy back on track and won the Cold War. Eroschillies wrote:Private banks were not forced to float loans to anyone, and Adjustable Rate Mortgages were the reason individuals struggled to pay their bills.The first year will have a low APR at about 6%, but then will increase to about 13%. This effectively increases a mortgage greatly. Banks aimed at lower income individuals themselves without provaction from the government to turn a bigger profit. Then they sold those loans as securities that were chopped up and repagaged later several times and resold. Then insurance firms like AIG sold insurance on those loans that were to be repaid by home owners, to be paid out in the event that the home onwers defualted. Which eventually occured due to intentional targeting of lower income individuals who could not afford to pay the mortgages in the long run. You are sorely mistaken. You may want to look at the Fair Housing Act and the Community Reinvestment Act. The Fair Housing Act prohibits a bank from refusing a loan based on many criteria including race, which is a good thing. But, it also classifies income level as a criteria. It would be considered discrimination for a bank to refuse a loan to a lower income individual. The Community Reinvestment Act was put forward to stop banks from specifically discriminating against people based upon race in mainly inner city commmunities, which is a good thing. The problem, again, is that refusing a loan to someone that cannot afford it was considered discrimination. So the government did force banks to float loans. The banks subsequently tried to turn a bigger profit after being forced into this situation. The way I see it, they were between a rock and a hard place. They could take hits on bad loans and eventually fail, or they could take advantage of the clients they were forced to take. Neither option is attractive. Eroschillies wrote:Who is more to blame for that is up to debate, the home owners purchasing loans they cannot afford or the bankers selling them the loans. So, its not the banks mostly who have the toxic assets, by other financial institutions who are now in trouble because of it. If the regulations hadn't been relaxed over the years, then banks wouldn't have been allowed to do shady loans. The financial institutions and bank regulations were also reduced when the required amounts of money they were supposed to hold in reserve were loosened. True, it is up to debate. I choose a third option, the government. They forced this, now we suffer. Yes, banks do not have the toxic assets anymore, they sold them off to unsuspecting companies to try and make a profit. If regulations had not been placed over the years, they would not be in the position to make shady deals. Lowering the reserve requirement can cause inflation, so I will agree that can be bad. In my opinion, the only thing that is under-regulated is a company's power to lobby politicians. I think evrything else is either over-regulated or just right. Eroschillies wrote:But that's just the housing market and financial sector problems. The economic crisis is compounded by several different markets. Blaming one just because it was the first to go seems a little silly to me. If it was any other market i would agree, but not this time. Our economy is so intertwined that anything that affects the banks will affect everything they have contact with, including other markets. Let me clarify my belief. What goes up must come down. Under Bush, we had amazing economic growth. A recession was inevitable. The problems with the housing and the banking exacerbated the issue. Eroschillies wrote:And to call the president a communist either means you don't know what a real communist is or you are just beeing loose with terms. To getting a better concept of real communism, read Das Kapital or some of Mao Zedong's works. The U.S. president may believe more social programs will ease economic problems, but that doesn't mean he's a commie. I was exaggerating. At this point, he is closer to socialist with a pinch of fascism. You are obsessed with Eroschillies
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/17/2008 Posts: 188
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Is this a Star Wars forum or the McLaughlin Group?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/17/2008 Posts: 188
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To keep with the theme here, did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity? Think about it...
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 1/6/2009 Posts: 908 Location: Felucia, near the Ancient Abyss
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yodaccm wrote:To keep with the theme here, did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity? Think about it... OMG
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 1/30/2009 Posts: 6,457 Location: Southern Illinois
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yodaccm wrote:Is this a Star Wars forum or the McLaughlin Group? WRONG!The answer is neither. Location matters not. I always loved that bit on SNL when they spoofed the MG show
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/26/2009 Posts: 272
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did you know modern politics hurts my head, but as a historian/archaeology student I find pre Renaissance politics unendingly interesting?
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 1/30/2009 Posts: 6,457 Location: Southern Illinois
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Dr. Destructo wrote:did you know modern politics hurts my head, but as a historian/archaeology student I find pre Renaissance politics unendingly interesting? I was not aware of that. Wow, even at my age, I still learn something new every day.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/30/2008 Posts: 1,290 Location: Stow Ohio, just north of Dantooine (vacay on Ando)
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how do I get to the bakery? I need pie!
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/25/2009 Posts: 75 Location: Kearney Nebraska
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I just got Cade Skywalker BH.
I think they need to make a Fett with female betrayal because of his pimpness.
Finally are they ever going to make a good Nogri, he did outwit Thrawn and stab him.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 812 Location: Parkville, MD
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defender390 wrote:Eroschillies wrote:But that's just the housing market and financial sector problems. The economic crisis is compounded by several different markets. Blaming one just because it was the first to go seems a little silly to me. If it was any other market i would agree, but not this time. Our economy is so intertwined that anything that affects the banks will affect everything they have contact with, including other markets. Let me clarify my belief. What goes up must come down. Under Bush, we had amazing economic growth. A recession was inevitable. The problems with the housing and the banking exacerbated the issue. I think I must have been elsewhere when we had amazing economic growth under Bush. The .com bubble burst in like 2001, and then the economy slowly reclined a bit. After 9-11, it tumbled. The only time we had any growth in the economy during the last 8 years was after the economy fell alot, then partially recovered. The great economic growth occured during the 90s, under Clinton, but hardly anything to do with him. The large economic growth during the 90s is what caused the federal surplus that Bush managed to dwindle to nothing and then negative. I'm glad Republicans are starting to recognize that Bush had many un-republican policies, like expanding the central government powers and ginormous spending. The government didn't force banks to float loans, they prohibited discrimination based on income brackets. So, if some one making $40k wanted to buy a $175k they could with proper financing. It's when bank sell a loan to a part-time employee of walmart a $750k loan, that's when there are issues. The government didn't make banks do crazy things, banks chose to do crazy things. Reagan didn't win the Cold War. In retrospect, Communism had won the Cold War for us by the early 80s. USSR couldn't sustain it's massive military spending on par with the US and dug its own grave. The only war I think Reagan did well with was the war on drugs. I think Carter did good to reduce military spending, seeing as there was an international treaty to reduce arms that demanded it. I think most serious economists realize that Reaganomics is pretty much a fool's errand. The homes that were given out by the government were to veterans, not the poor or those on welfare. They live in shelters. Social Security saved this country during the great depression. Without it, many elderly and disabled would have been taken care of by their family instead of the government, and people back then didn't have all that much money. I wouldn't even say he has a pinch of fascism, the president that is. When I think of fascism, I think of socialist militarism throughout all levels of government. It's even debatable whether or not Japan was truly fascist during WWII.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 9/1/2008 Posts: 196 Location: Indiana
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IronLung wrote:I just got Cade Skywalker BH.
I think they need to make a Fett with female betrayal because of his pimpness.
Finally are they ever going to make a good Nogri, he did outwit Thrawn and stab him. his name was kruhk or something like that, and yeah, he'd be sweet. he have cloaked, pioson +10/20, twin or at least double, cunning+20/opro+20, (probably opro) betrayal maybe, thrawns bodyguard, quick reactions. and maybe some cool new paralyzing special ability. HP-70, DF-19, ATT-11, DMG-10 something like that. i know this is off topic, but this should almost be under customs.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/30/2008 Posts: 1,290 Location: Stow Ohio, just north of Dantooine (vacay on Ando)
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but.... what about my pie?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 328 Location: Akron, Ohio
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There is no spoon, or pie.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 8/28/2008 Posts: 1,378 Location: Indianapolis
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PIE!?!?!?!?! WHERE!
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 8/28/2008 Posts: 1,378 Location: Indianapolis
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Topher_Champion_Of_The_Force wrote:IronLung wrote:I just got Cade Skywalker BH.
I think they need to make a Fett with female betrayal because of his pimpness.
Finally are they ever going to make a good Nogri, he did outwit Thrawn and stab him. i know this is off topic... THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD!!!
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 2/16/2009 Posts: 1,485
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BTW the Noghri who kill Thrawn was Rukh. They need to make Cakwaim and Meelwah too, Leia's Bodyguards. Then make a Lady Vader that helps fringe and can bring Noghri to your squad.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008 Posts: 396
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Eroschilles wrote:I think I must have been elsewhere when we had amazing economic growth under Bush. The .com bubble burst in like 2001, and then the economy slowly reclined a bit. After 9-11, it tumbled. The only time we had any growth in the economy during the last 8 years was after the economy fell alot, then partially recovered. The great economic growth occured during the 90s, under Clinton, but hardly anything to do with him. The large economic growth during the 90s is what caused the federal surplus that Bush managed to dwindle to nothing and then negative. I'm glad Republicans are starting to recognize that Bush had many un-republican policies, like expanding the central government powers and ginormous spending. Actually, the economic scene was better than you described, it had its setbacks, but was generally rebounding from the collapse of the internet stocks and the DOW hit a high of 14,000. That was amazing. Considering the circumstances, Bush did an extremely good job and the economy was very good, the average annual growth was about 2.2%. Unfortunately, it was inevitable that these things would catch up with us. The economic growth in the 90s was mainly because of Contract with America (set up by House Republicans), Reagan policies still in effect, and the successes of internet businesses. The 90s were also lucky enough to not have a terrorist attack on U.S. soil or a major war. The federal surplus was nonexistent. It was completely based upon projected gains from the internet businesses. They collapsed, and thus there was no surplus. Bush's spending habits were pretty much the only thing I did not like about him. I am not, however, convinced the overspending was all his fault. You must remember that a liberal congress was in power for much of his presidency. Quote:The government didn't force banks to float loans, they prohibited discrimination based on income brackets. So, if some one making $40k wanted to buy a $175k they could with proper financing. It's when bank sell a loan to a part-time employee of walmart a $750k loan, that's when there are issues. The government didn't make banks do crazy things, banks chose to do crazy things. The CRA forced banks to make loans to people who would normally be refused as a bad credit risk. The FHA then made it so the bank could not give them different interest rates based upon their income level. A minimum wage worker asking for 750k would have to be accepted and given the same rates as a Millionare asking for the same amount. The government did force banks to do crazy things, do you think it is a coincidence that the government banks were hit the hardest? Some banks were able to work around the interest rate requirements, but few could avoid giving loans to the undeserved. Quote:Reagan didn't win the Cold War. In retrospect, Communism had won the Cold War for us by the early 80s. USSR couldn't sustain it's massive military spending on par with the US and dug its own grave. The only war I think Reagan did well with was the war on drugs. I think Carter did good to reduce military spending, seeing as there was an international treaty to reduce arms that demanded it. I think most serious economists realize that Reaganomics is pretty much a fool's errand. Nope. Reagan did win the Cold War. The Soviet Union was already on its decline, but Reagan sped it up. Would you also say that Hitler won the European Theater for the allies because of his horrible decisions from 1943 on? Would you say the IJN won the Pacific Theater for the allies by failing to protect their supply lines? Reagan was the one that pushed the Soviets over the edge by forcing them to either match him in defensive systems, or cede. They bankrupted themselves in the process of competing with SDI. Gorbechev did have a role in ending the Soviet Union, but Reagan sealed the deal. The Soviets may have comlpetely collapsed later without Reagan's interference, but that is a moot point. In reality, Reagan won. About Carter, reducing military spending in the middle of a war is never a good idea. Arms treaties are pretty much a joke. Both sides may agree, but they never intend to follow it. If they do, they are foolish. Just look at the Treaty of Versailles or the Washington Naval Treaty. Those were not ever going to be honored and were not honored, so they were little more than useless gestures. You also seem to forget the result of Carter's maltreatment of the defense budget. Equipment was outdated, morale was horrible, and re-enlistment was at an all-time low. It took a lot of work for Reagan to fix the mess Carter turned the military into. Finally, Reaganomics is still the best economic policy to date. You cannot argue with a 3.4% annual GDP growth rate. That is only slightly lower than the post-war growth of 3.6%. It also resulted in a job increase rate almost equal to the population growth rate. It consists of four simple rules: 1. reduce the growth of government spending 2. reduce income and capital gains marginal tax rates, 3. reduce government regulation of the economy 4. control the money supply to reduce inflation Quote:The homes that were given out by the government were to veterans, not the poor or those on welfare. They live in shelters. Social Security saved this country during the great depression. Without it, many elderly and disabled would have been taken care of by their family instead of the government, and people back then didn't have all that much money. Are you kidding me? If you are below a certain income level, you qualify for Government Assisted Housing. This includes people on welfare. That plan continued and resulted in offshoots including CRA and FHA aimed at forcing banks to give loans for other low income people so they could buy their own houses instead of the government providing it for them. So yes, the government does provide housing for the poor and those on welfare. And no, social security did not save our country, World War II saved our country from the Great Depression. Money was already practically worthless during the Great Depression, so the amount of money that people had did not matter. Towns ran more on an exchange of services. A lawyer would represent a farmer in court, and the farmer would pay the lawyer with some food. That was how it worked, people took care of each other. This included the elderly and disabled in these communities. People honored their families back then, no matter how bad things got. The government programs during that time did provide needed jobs, food, and care, but unfortunately, just like communism, it stifles all economic growth. If things had continued without World War II, the United States would not exist for that reason. And do not even get me started on FDR... Quote:I wouldn't even say he has a pinch of fascism, the president that is. When I think of fascism, I think of socialist militarism throughout all levels of government. It's even debatable whether or not Japan was truly fascist during WWII. Nowadays, fascism is a bit of an ambiguous term. Many people like to call it right-wing extremism, yet no fascist government was particularly right-wing. I like to think of fascism more as a belief that people owe everything to the government, but does not encourage class warfare like communism does. I say Obama has a pinch of fascism because he is obviously socialist, but not quite communist. I do not think he believes in true equality like a true communist (which does not exist and never will). Instead, he uses the poor as a stepping stone to power, much like a fascist. He still believes in many social programs, though. That makes him a socialist. I hope that clarifies my view of Obama. If you want a more in depth description of Obama that I do not feel like explaining, read this.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 1/11/2009 Posts: 460
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im enjoying reading this. this is quite the debate, and quite the topic. i beg you to keep going, lol! im fascinated!
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 812 Location: Parkville, MD
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@defender The U.S. actually had a few terrorist attacks on US soil during the 90s. Of course they have been overshadowed by the enormity of 9-11. The first attack on the twin towers by bin laden in the early 90s, the domestic terror attack on oklahoma city, and the US embassy bombings that occured. We were also involved in several military actions, both in Europe and Africa to try to secure peace. We also made several anti-terrorist strikes against individuals like kadafi (sp?).
There was a federal surplus, largely drawn from the .com boom. There were projected gains as well, which is probably why pres Bush felt there was room to return some of the surplus to the taxpayers as he felt it was their money anyways. I would not blame a liberal congress for the runaway spending under the bush administration, and I wouldn't blame him per se either as it largely came from the war effort. One being a poorly planned and executed war to topple the taliban and the other an unnecessary war that was equally poorly done.
Banks can and have refused loans based on whether or not they believed individuals could pay them. And the size of the loan is also decided by the banks. And why are those who have less money less deserving? Less able to buy nice houses maybe, but I wouldn't say less deserving.
Arms treaties should be honored. If we give our word to do something, we should do it. If the USSR hadn't been as weak as it was and ready to collapse, Reagan's arms building could have left the world in ashes. The Cold War wasn't a real war, so reducing military spending is not a bad idea. Why pay tremendously for a service we were not using at the time? Defense is good and key, but wasteful spending on weaponry when we said we wouldn't is not. If Reagan had just update and revamped the military instead of aiming to increase it and make more nukes, it would have been bett IMO.
And Reaganomics... I dislike it, all my econ proffs dislike it. The GDP growth rate is good, but you know who also has good GDP growth? China. For the last 30 years they maintained a constant GDP growth of about 8% each year. That's ridiculously good, but success in GDP growth isn't always for the best as a nation. China considers themselves to be a socialist market economy with a strong communist goverment. They are doing quite well economically for a stifling economic system life communism. Proving where the USSR went wrong.
We have neigh reached the classical region of aggragate supply, real GDP doesn't increase much there. But our increasing income inequality does not make Reaganomics look good. The gap between the rich and poor has been increasing since around 2004, and this is noted by the rising Gini Coeffecient from about .45 to about .47. Do we need to make the US richer with increasing GDP or do we need to increase our standard of living better for everyone, not just the rich? Questions left to those who get elected to great power and responsibility.
Social Security saved us from collapsing before we got to WWII. And the way WWII saved us was by providing jobs and money to everyone in the US. The military-industrial complex of the goverment became one giant social program that saved this nation. I have nothing but respect for how FDR saved us all from speaking German, even if I disagree with many of the things he did and programs he started.
And I wouldn't say communism, socialism, or fascism are ambigous terms nowadays. Not when most of the population can actively recall McCarthyism. They have specific meanings. I would not say fascism is right-wing extremism, especially since it's a form of socialism (that being leftist in this country).
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