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See, I just don't see it. Her utility is not such that she is a vital component to how OR operates, like Bastilla. Will figures get compared to her when they are in that point range, sure. I just don't see how she makes it impossible to make pieces in that same price range. Sure, Jaq may be the more popular option. But there are squads, where people will still take the old Atton. Jaq has some nice utility, but lacks Atton's pure damage output. I think a lot of that will be applied here.
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Sithborg wrote:See, I just don't see it. Her utility is not such that she is a vital component to how OR operates, like Bastilla. Will figures get compared to her when they are in that point range, sure. I just don't see how she makes it impossible to make pieces in that same price range. Sure, Jaq may be the more popular option. But there are squads, where people will still take the old Atton. Jaq has some nice utility, but lacks Atton's pure damage output. I think a lot of that will be applied here. It is not impossible just whatever you make will most likely not be as good as her. She may not be "Vital" but she is the best melee option the old republic have by a LONG shot, and it will be hard to replace her as that goto melee piece in the old republic... maybe not one on one but in squad building for her cost you can just add to much other stuff to your squad by using her over one of the other high costing melee pieces in the faction.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:not sure what you are saying other then exactly what I said... that she will have an impact on future design No, see, that's not what you're saying. That's true of every single piece ever made. What you're saying is this: Quote:She is just costed to low for what all she does and that will cause other pieces to have to be costed low to fit/catch up with her abilities and that is why she is bad for the game. That's what I disagree with. I believe she WILL have impact on design, because everything does, but not to the extent that you are positing.
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Echo24 wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:not sure what you are saying other then exactly what I said... that she will have an impact on future design No, see, that's not what you're saying. That's true of every single piece ever made. What you're saying is this: Quote:She is just costed to low for what all she does and that will cause other pieces to have to be costed low to fit/catch up with her abilities and that is why she is bad for the game. That's what I disagree with. I believe she WILL have impact on design, because everything does, but not to the extent that you are positing. I guess we will just disagree forever lol.
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Oh well, at least we agree she is under costed.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:It is not impossible just whatever you make will most likely not be as good as her. She may not be "Vital" but she is the best melee option the old republic have by a LONG shot, and it will be hard to replace her as that goto melee piece in the old republic... maybe not one on one but in squad building for her cost you can just add to much other stuff to your squad by using her over one of the other high costing melee pieces in the faction. I've read this whole thread, and you've brought up this issue ad nauseum. I have just one question: Why do you think we'd try to replace her? She's a good piece, and dynamite for her faction. The designers made her that way on purpose, and I think it was a good decision. Part of the thinking in creating her that way was so that they would not have to replace her. So why do you think we'd try to replace her? Republic has not tried to replace R2. He's the most cost-effective movement-breaker in the game. Republic has added other movement-breaking options (Panaka, Foul, etc), but has never tried to replace him. NR has not tried to replace Mara Jade Jedi. There are other cost-effective pieces in that price range (with more coming), but none are intended to replace her. Heck, even the most recent version (58pts) is way different from MJJ. I could go on, but I'm not sure it would help. My point is that just because a piece is aggressively costed does not mean that all future pieces, even future pieces in that faction, will adopt that piece's costing scheme. As an example, I'm on the V-Set 5 Design Team. A number of times, as we're tossing ideas around, we've said, "But this piece can't compete with Jaq, who is 36pts"...to which the response has invariably been, "That's fine, we're not wanting this piece to compete with Jaq." It's okay if some pieces stand out from the rest as dynamite, powerful, aggressively-costed pieces. It's okay, it really is!
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thereisnotry wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:It is not impossible just whatever you make will most likely not be as good as her. She may not be "Vital" but she is the best melee option the old republic have by a LONG shot, and it will be hard to replace her as that goto melee piece in the old republic... maybe not one on one but in squad building for her cost you can just add to much other stuff to your squad by using her over one of the other high costing melee pieces in the faction. I've read this whole thread, and you've brought up this issue ad nauseum. I have just one question: Why do you think we'd try to replace her? She's a good piece, and dynamite for her faction. The designers made her that way on purpose, and I think it was a good decision. Part of the thinking in creating her that way was so that they would not have to replace her. So why do you think we'd try to replace her? Republic has not tried to replace R2. He's the most cost-effective movement-breaker in the game. Republic has added other movement-breaking options (Panaka, Foul, etc), but has never tried to replace him. NR has not tried to replace Mara Jade Jedi. There are other cost-effective pieces in that price range (with more coming), but none are intended to replace her. Heck, even the most recent version (58pts) is way different from MJJ. I could go on, but I'm not sure it would help. My point is that just because a piece is aggressively costed does not mean that all future pieces, even future pieces in that faction, will adopt that piece's costing scheme. As an example, I'm on the V-Set 5 Design Team. A number of times, as we're tossing ideas around, we've said, "But this piece can't compete with Jaq, who is 36pts"...to which the response has invariably been, "That's fine, we're not wanting this piece to compete with Jaq." It's okay if some pieces stand out from the rest as dynamite, powerful, aggressively-costed pieces. It's okay, it really is! Ok replace her as in make an option other then her, not replace her as in this piece will negate all uses of satele. Making a piece that you would look at and go.... hmmmm.... I have 37 points left... Satele... or......? will be extremely hard due to her power level. As far as Jaq goes.... if the designers ever replace him as the go to shooter for old republic, or heck even sith, then I could only imagine the meta/power level of all the new pieces that have been made to make Jaq replaceable. Now to the bolded part. This is the type of thinking that I am completely against, because it leads to this occurring in every single set, we don't need agressively costed dynamite pieces ALL the time... give us squad building unique options that can COMPETE but when you all throw around stuff like Satele, Jaq, Bastilla, Kaan, Palleon, etc. it leaves the rest of what was made useless. Sure argue all you want to that the Meta is wide open, but in all reality is that a good thing? To open up the Meta there was a HUGE influx of pieces that were ridiculously powered, and the trend did not end. Old Republic got bastilla and immediately they won gencon... then they got jaq, and carth, now satele. Imperials, who were not struggling got one of my least favorite pieces of all time Palleon, and were they struggling... no, Republic got Foul, Mace, and were they struggling, Heck New republic got corran horn and even they were not really struggling... While the Mandos and Vong got crapped on. I do like some of the things Sith got, but all the things I like about them are over shadowed by the Revan Kaan Jaq squad so I cant even justify using the other pieces the sith received....
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thereisnotry wrote:aggressively-costed pieces I really HATE that phrasing. Lets see less UNDERCOSTED minis and more APPROPRIATELY costed minis.
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I have seen set 5 and play tested a lot of what is in set 5, I wish I could go into details about it, but I will not because I don't want to spoil/ruin anything. But I will say that there are a lot of things in set 5 that personally I am against. I am not a designer of set 5, and I am not on the play testing committee for it either... so I have kept my mouth shut about it. I am a very open person with a lot of personal opinions and I like to openly say whatever it is I have to say, Like Daniel says almost no one agrees with me, so I guess I can only suggest taking what I have to say with a grain of salt... or ignore me, but I know there are a lot of people that at least read what I have to say and in their minds agree with me a little bit, but don't want to speak up because they don't want to offend/upset the minis communitty.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:I know there are a lot of people that at least read what I have to say and in their minds agree with me a little bit, but don't want to speak up because they don't want to offend/upset the minis communitty. For the record, nope. Not here. I think the v-sets have got about 99.5% of things spot on, and the meta they've created is vastly superior to what WotC came up with.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but that seems be a poor understanding of squad building and squad synergy. Putting in all the "strongest" pieces there are does not make a good squad.
Take Atton/Jaq. I think we can all agree that Jaq is a great piece, one of the premier shooters in the OR. Now take the original Atton Rand. I have an OR squad that I would us the original over Jaq everytime. Atton's damage output is insane, and isn't nearly as weak against Droids as Jaq. Vader is also the perfect example, as there are a handful of good Vaders, depending on your squad choice. Satele is strong overall, sure. But she does not fill all roles that can fit at that point range. And there is nothing wrong with making a piece that is "weaker" if it does something different, as there is always the chance that the squad needs that instead.
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Lord_Ball wrote:thereisnotry wrote:aggressively-costed pieces I really HATE that phrasing. Lets see less UNDERCOSTED minis and more APPROPRIATELY costed minis. Costing is more art than science. Nickname mentioned a 5 pt leeway, that if a figure fell into, that the figure is probably okay. Agressively costed just means the cost toward the lower end of the point range a figure would fall into.
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TheHutts wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:I know there are a lot of people that at least read what I have to say and in their minds agree with me a little bit, but don't want to speak up because they don't want to offend/upset the minis communitty. For the record, nope. Not here. I think the v-sets have got about 99.5% of things spot on, and the meta they've created is vastly superior to what WotC came up with. Awesome, I am glad you love the Vsets. I actually like the Vsets a lot to, for the amazing fact that they kept the game from dying, and this is worth commending... A group of individuals stepped up to keep it alive and deserve a lot of praise for their efforts. I just don't always agree with the outcome is all.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:TheHutts wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:I know there are a lot of people that at least read what I have to say and in their minds agree with me a little bit, but don't want to speak up because they don't want to offend/upset the minis communitty. For the record, nope. Not here. I think the v-sets have got about 99.5% of things spot on, and the meta they've created is vastly superior to what WotC came up with. Awesome, I am glad you love the Vsets. I actually like the Vsets a lot to, for the amazing fact that they kept the game from dying, and this is worth commending... A group of individuals stepped up to keep it alive and deserve a lot of praise for their efforts. I just don't always agree with the outcome is all. And that is okay. We can't please everyone. I have no problem hearing complaints, and can even understand some (the BX stuff still confuses me).
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Sithborg wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, but that seems be a poor understanding of squad building and squad synergy. Putting in all the "strongest" pieces there are does not make a good squad.
Take Atton/Jaq. I think we can all agree that Jaq is a great piece, one of the premier shooters in the OR. Now take the original Atton Rand. I have an OR squad that I would us the original over Jaq everytime. Atton's damage output is insane, and isn't nearly as weak against Droids as Jaq. Vader is also the perfect example, as there are a handful of good Vaders, depending on your squad choice. Satele is strong overall, sure. But she does not fill all roles that can fit at that point range. And there is nothing wrong with making a piece that is "weaker" if it does something different, as there is always the chance that the squad needs that instead. I agree 100% that putting in all the strongest pieces is not the best option, but starting with the most powerful piece/pieces then building around the pieces you think are the best typically is the best way to go. Of course there are other options for different squads, but where are those squads. I am sure you can build a squad around the old Atton Rand that would be better with him then the new Atton Rand, but how would that squad do in a tournament setting? The new Atton is/has almost always been better to build around then the old Atton because all around he is a better piece. The problem with Satele is I have seen nothing that she is not awesome at so making a piece that does something different, that will actually make a difference in the squad, then her will be extremely hard to do.
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Sithborg wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:TheHutts wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:I know there are a lot of people that at least read what I have to say and in their minds agree with me a little bit, but don't want to speak up because they don't want to offend/upset the minis communitty. For the record, nope. Not here. I think the v-sets have got about 99.5% of things spot on, and the meta they've created is vastly superior to what WotC came up with. Awesome, I am glad you love the Vsets. I actually like the Vsets a lot to, for the amazing fact that they kept the game from dying, and this is worth commending... A group of individuals stepped up to keep it alive and deserve a lot of praise for their efforts. I just don't always agree with the outcome is all. And that is okay. We can't please everyone. I have no problem hearing complaints, and can even understand some (the BX stuff still confuses me). I sincerely hope I don't offend anyone or anything like that. Maybe I should just let it go... I just can't... lol. The BX sniper/spotter droids used to make me mad and I thought they were undercosted, but just the other day I ran rebel squad with the new Han, Yoda, Leia, and luke rebel commando against 4 snipers and 4 spotters with double attack and I still won, it just takes some playing against them and they are not as bad as I thought. I still think they are good and will see some play, and I think that the spotter will be the one that will stand the test of time more due to improved spotter and energy shield.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:I agree 100% that putting in all the strongest pieces is not the best option, but starting with the most powerful piece/pieces then building around the pieces you think are the best typically is the best way to go. Of course there are other options for different squads, but where are those squads. One good example is the 2009-2010 Rebel Han cannon squads. Previously, the Rebels would use more self-sufficient pieces like Han Scoundrel, but once Rieekan came out, it moved the Rebels to using weaker, cheaper pieces like Han Smuggler, and really emphasising the synergies like the Commandos with Crix Madine's CE. The Naboo squads are another example of mostly weak individual pieces really squeezing a lot out of synergy - the combination of Panaka of Theed's twin, Yularen's opportunist, and Mon Mothma's death shot is brutal. I'd say the "Republic's Greatest Hits" type squad, like the GOWK/Mace/Rex squad that chucks a bunch of the Republic's strongest pieces together, with less obvious synergies (eg Rex doesn't benefit from GOWK at all) is the minority.
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TheHutts wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:I agree 100% that putting in all the strongest pieces is not the best option, but starting with the most powerful piece/pieces then building around the pieces you think are the best typically is the best way to go. Of course there are other options for different squads, but where are those squads. One good example is the 2009-2010 Rebel Han cannon squads. Previously, the Rebels would use more self-sufficient pieces like Luke's Snowspeeder and Han Scoundrel, but once Rieekan came out, it moved the Rebels to using weaker, cheaper pieces like Han Smuggler, and really emphasising the synergies like the Commandos with Crix Madine's CE. The Naboo squads are another example of mostly weak individual pieces really squeezing a lot out of synergy - the combination of Panaka of Theed's twin, Yularen's opportunist, and Mon Mothma's death shot is brutal. I'd say the "Republic's Greatest Hits" type squad, like the GOWK/Mace/Rex squad that chucks a bunch of the Republic's strongest pieces together, with less obvious synergies (eg Rex doesn't benefit from GOWK at all) is the minority. I dont really understand this.... I would think that Han Smuggler, Reikan, Commandos, Crix Madine are some of the best pieces in the Rebel Faction... The Naboos are just an oversight of the Vset desginers/play testers and never should have made it out the way they are. I think this is where people lose me... I think that you have to look at pieces in Squad formats only, I care nothing about individual pieces and what the piece does by itself... So to me the most powerful piece in a faction is the Piece that is the best overall in squad formats. I think the best squad format for republic is the Mace/GOWK/Rex build. Just like I think the best Old Republic build is Weeks, Bastilla, Atton, Carth, Satele squad. To elaborate.... When I say starting with the most powerful pieces, that Solely depends on YOUR individual play style, take me for example, I am a huge fan of Solo Charge so when I look at New Republic I almost always start with Han Galactic Hero, Anakin Solo, etc. (This is purely for example, since Mace has basically killed my desire to run solo charge since Mara Jade, Jedi is so raped by him.) Daniel May prefer to play a squad with someone Like Corran Horn, which is where he starts when he builds a squad, Some people prefer things like Black and Blue and Start with Thrawn, Palleon, Act Control, Mas Ameda, then add in what they think the best damage dealing piece is in that faction, some people choose Lord Vader, other like a combo of Scourge of the Jedi with Cad or Arica. But if you start with something like... I don't know.... Logray, or The Imperial Sentinel chances are you are not running the best squad you could. Sometimes though, in Factions there are obvious choices for what the best squad in that faction is. See Sith with Revan Atton Kaan.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:I dont really understand this.... I would think that Han Smuggler, Reikan, Commandos, Crix Madine are some of the best pieces in the Rebel Faction... The point is that wasn't always true. Han Smuggler was released in KotOR, and when he was released he sucked pretty bad and nobody played him. At the time Rebels were very strong, but they used Han Scoundrel. Han Smuggler was in almost every way a weaker piece. Then Rieekan was released and Han Smuggler became a much better piece, because giving him Evade and Mobile Attack worked really well with him, but Han Scoundrel already had both of those abilities making him a less efficient choice. The meta also changed some so that using the cheaper Han Smuggler was a better competitive choice then the more powerful but more expensive Han Scoundrel. As for the Naboo characters, I actually disagree that they were a mistake at all. After playing them, I think they are really overrated, and are at best a powerful squad with as many counters as any other powerful squad. They're a CE-heavy swam squad, something we haven't seen in years, and it's really a refreshing change. Yeah, a 9 point piece can do TONS of damage, but you're paying 117 points to make it even work (in the squad I took to GenCon at least). They're a neat gatekeeper, but no worse than lots of other things in the meta. That discussion isn't really here nor there, though, and fits in more with the NPE thread over on SWMGamers I think.
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Echo24 wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:I dont really understand this.... I would think that Han Smuggler, Reikan, Commandos, Crix Madine are some of the best pieces in the Rebel Faction... The point is that wasn't always true. Han Smuggler was released in KotOR, and when he was released he sucked pretty bad and nobody played him. At the time Rebels were very strong, but they used Han Scoundrel. Han Smuggler was in almost every way a weaker piece. Then Rieekan was released and Han Smuggler became a much better piece, because giving him Evade and Mobile Attack worked really well with him, but Han Scoundrel already had both of those abilities making him a less efficient choice. The meta also changed some so that using the cheaper Han Smuggler was a better competitive choice then the more powerful but more expensive Han Scoundrel. Yes and then probably one of the Top 5 most powerful pieces of the Wizards era was released (Reikan) and that changed what was the best in that faction which is almost exactly my point, a lot of the pieces in the Vset are so good at so many different things that it is hard to make a tech style piece that suddenly makes another piece a better option then they are already. You could do exactly what Wizards did and release a cheap piece that grants Evade and Mobile Attack Boardwide to allies, but lets face it, that is way to good and would be a horrible idea. For instance Atton Rand, the designers have already stated that well compared to him this piece is not so good, but that is okay we are not trying to replace him.... why because to replace him the piece would have to be broken (I say this because most people say Atton is a piece that changed where the bar is for designing pieces and to replace him it would have to shatter that bar.) I mean I guess you could grant every old republic ally Assassin, Override, and Avoid Defeat and then heck even Atton would be replaced... but it would be amazingly dumb (I know this is an huge overstatement, and the designers would never do this but it is to prove a point.)
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