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countrydude82487
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:55:39 PM
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also there are not enough c's for that commander effect
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:16:22 PM
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test
Boris
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 10:28:35 AM
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This is the wording from the QC. NOTE: It is NOT the final wording (see below):

Quote:
Master Yoda
Cost 44

HP 120
DEF 20
ATK 14
DAM 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Republic squad]
Ataru Style [+4 Attack if exactly 1 enemy is within 6 squares]
Jedi Trainer [At the start of the skirmish, choose an allied character with a Force rating. That ally gains 1 Force point and Ataru Style.]

Force Powers
Force 3. Force Renewal 1; Master of the Force 2
Force Defense [Force 3: Cancel a Force power used by a character within 6 squares]
Force Stun [Force 1, usable only on this character's turn; range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11]
Lightsaber Defense [Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]

Commander Effect
Allies with a Force rating that can only make a single attack gain Twin Attack.

Allies with a lightsaber gain Lightsaber Defense.


After the BT was posted, we tinkered some with the wording of the CE, to come up with the following final version of the character card.

Quote:
Master Yoda
Cost 44

HP 120
DEF 20
ATK 14
DAM 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Republic squad]
Ataru Style [+4 Attack if exactly 1 enemy is within 6 squares]
Jedi Trainer [At the start of the skirmish, choose an allied character with a Force rating. That ally gains 1 Force point and Ataru Style.]

Force Powers
Force 3. Force Renewal 1; Master of the Force 2
Force Defense [Force 3: Cancel a Force power used by a character within 6 squares]
Force Stun [Force 1, usable only on this character's turn; range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11]
Lightsaber Defense [Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]

Commander Effect
At the end of its turn, if an ally with a Force rating made only one attack this turn, it may make one additional attack against the same enemy if it can.

Allies with a lightsaber gain Lightsaber Defense.


So there you have it.
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 10:45:22 AM
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Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:07:12 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.


Probably so that it doesn't work with Sweep and Assault. JWM's and all...

Will be great for a lot of characters.
Boris
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:17:07 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.


There were a lot of problems with the definition of "single attack" and would have required a half a page of FAQ clarification. The final version, while a bit more limiting in scope, is so much cleaner and simpler.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:20:45 AM
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So which set is Yoda in?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:22:46 AM
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Boris wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.


There were a lot of problems with the definition of "single attack" and would have required a half a page of FAQ clarification. The final version, while a bit more limiting in scope, is so much cleaner and simpler.


Very impressed with the wording.
AndyHatton
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:31:03 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Boris wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.


There were a lot of problems with the definition of "single attack" and would have required a half a page of FAQ clarification. The final version, while a bit more limiting in scope, is so much cleaner and simpler.


Very impressed with the wording.


Agreed, I can see a lot of stuff that might have been unintentional with the original wording. I like the CE and Yoda a lot.
Jedi_Master
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:36:38 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.



"Probably so that it doesn't work with Sweep and Assault. JWM's and all..."

^ This ^ Also, the new wording is more useful, as a character with double or triple can move, attack once, then attack again. Gives the republic more mobility (ironic how it doesn't work with mobile attack though RollEyes )

Boris wrote:
There were a lot of problems with the definition of "single attack" and would have required a half a page of FAQ clarification. The final version, while a bit more limiting in scope, is so much cleaner and simpler.


I like it a lot better actually...and I see it as a lot more expansive in who it effects. Anybody with extra attacks in a round who have to move and lose them now can make a second poke at people. It is an across the board use.

Also, one unintended fix was with Padme Amidala, Senator. Use to be her extra shot was a twin, now yoda's CE doesn't help anymore, so no 4 shot net gun with zuckus BH ^^
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:44:11 AM
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Jedi_Master wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Why the changing of the wording of the ce? Guess in this way, it is a little clearer as to who it applies to... also doesn't work with mobile attack now. Interesting wording.



"Probably so that it doesn't work with Sweep and Assault. JWM's and all..."

^ This ^ Also, the new wording is more useful, as a character with double or triple can move, attack once, then attack again. Gives the republic more mobility (ironic how it doesn't work with mobile attack though RollEyes )


And since you have to end your move before ending your turn, hello General Skywalker.

And since it's an end of turn simultaneous effect thing, CE's that grant extra movement at end of turn can be used after the extra attack. ...the only ones that come to mind are Princess Leia, Senator and Rex 501st with Yoda and Bardan/Tur-Mukan.

Hmm, and would seem it doesn't work with Rolling Cleave.
Echo24
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:50:15 AM
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Jedi_Master wrote:
Also, one unintended fix was with Padme Amidala, Senator. Use to be her extra shot was a twin, now yoda's CE doesn't help anymore, so no 4 shot net gun with zuckus BH ^^


That wasn't unintentional at all, it was very specifically brought up in the design thread. Believe it or not, designers actually think of these things.
komix
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 12:31:46 PM
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I'm sorry, a Rebel Yoda with lightsaber?
NO WAY.
ThumbDown ThumbDown ThumbDown ThumbDown
What's next? Darth Vader Redeemed? (from RoTJ before death?)
I get that we already have Jennir, Pavan in Rebels but that's just wrong. They should've been Fringe with Anti-Imperial affinity or sort(can't be placed in Imperial squad). Just because some characters were in Republic and it ended doesn't mean that they gotta go to Rebel faction. Come on, we shouldn't repeat WotC's mistakesCursing And we all know that Rebel faction was created many years later. Just because some1 opposed Empire doesn't make him Rebel. -or is it only for some undexplored game mechanics? Still think it is a BIG mistake. I'm surprised that everybody is on board with it.

I like him in Republic, thou.
He's A LOT undercosted- compare him with Rebel Force Battery in Rebel squad/ Yoda from JA for Republic squad. Should cost ~54/56 points for what he brings to the table for both factions.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'm a strong V-sets supporter but seeing another key/next gen pieces seriously undercosted (Mace, now Yoda) I'm beggining to wonder if it is being done sorely on purpose.

If my words offended any1 then I am really sorry and from this place would like to apologise, but I had to get this out of my chest. I really like this game and I want to play it for as long as I can, but if more pieces which aren't that much game-changing but their cost ratio/what they bring in to the table are on their way, then I will have to seriously think if I want to start skirmish with my friends.
Echo24
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 12:43:22 PM
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komix wrote:

I'm a strong V-sets supporter but seeing another key/next gen pieces seriously undercosted (Mace, now Yoda) I'm beggining to wonder if it is being done sorely on purpose.



Really? Interesting. I'll be honest; I think he's a fair amount overcosted and isn't even all that good. He brings some neat tricks, I guess, but for 44 points I have a hard time thinking of a good squad he would even fit in. I wasn't a designer on this set, but I think he fits snugly in the "neat, but not really great" designation. If he cost 54 points, he would be unplayably bad.

Although I guess you think Mace is "seriously undercosted", which I've said a lot about (to review: he isn't). I'm curious to see what overpowered, amazing squad you would build that Yoda would go in.


As for him being Rebel with a lightsaber, this is Yoda right at the end of RotS; basically he's just like the Darth Vader, Sith Apprentice that came out in MotF. That was a "Vader" who is Imperial but NOT in his armor (it's just Anakin) because he's from the same point (the very end of RotS, after the Empire has technically been created but before/during his duel with Obi-Wan on Mustafar).
Boris
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:01:54 PM
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komix wrote:
[b]I'm sorry, a Rebel Yoda with lightsaber?


One of the dumbest suggestions of all time regarding Star Wars is that Luke was proficient enough to hold his ground against Vader for as long as he did with virtually no formal lightsaber training. I always believed, even growing up, that Yoda taught Luke lightsaber skills during his time on Dagobah, and that the only reason we didn't see it in the movie is because it was not feasible to portray a puppet holding a lightsaber in 1979.

Designing a Rebel Yoda with affinity for Republic was one of the hardest processes we went through on v-set 4, and took perhaps the longest amount of time to finish. He didn't start out as a combatant, but the more time passed and the more revisions he went through, the harder it was to accurately cost him as a non-combatant that could help two factions in a way that hasn't already been done by some other piece. Ultimately it was decided that this would be the Yoda who defied the Empire and went on to teach Luke what he knew. It gives the Rebel a solid melee fighter and offers some combat assistance to the factions that need help keeping up with the changes to the other faction.

I knew when we made this change that not everyone would like it, and that's okay. There's never going to be a figure design that everyone approves of, and we just have to do what we think is best for the game overall. And to answer your other question, no there will never be a "Darth Vader Redeemed" as long as I have anything to say about it (and please note I don't always have a say about every decision). That would be ridiculous.

Quote:
I get that we already have Jennir, Pavan in Rebels but that's just wrong. They should've been Fringe with Anti-Imperial affinity or sort(can't be placed in Imperial squad). Just because some characters were in Republic and it ended doesn't mean that they gotta go to Rebel faction. Come on, we shouldn't repeat WotC's mistakesCursing


That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I disagree. I don't see those choices as "mistakes," nor do I think our decisions are a repeat of any such "mistakes." Instead, I believe it is our responsibility to build on what Rob created and to keep his vision of the game intact as much as possible without continuing the trend of setting up inferior factions. This is a step in that endeavor, and i am proud of how the stat block turned out.

As to the rest, yes some of it is intentional. No WotC version of Mace is competitive. No WotC version of most uniques are considered competitive. We are working to put movie heroes in the competitive game and I won't apologize for that.
komix
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:16:48 PM
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Echo24 wrote:

Really? Interesting. I'll be honest; I think he's a fair amount overcosted and isn't even all that good. He brings some neat tricks, I guess, but for 44 points I have a hard time thinking of a good squad he would even fit in. I wasn't a designer on this set, but I think he fits snugly in the "neat, but not really great" designation. If he cost 54 points, he would be unplayably bad.

Ok 54 may be too much but 50? Why not? You say he's overcosted?Confused Strong 2 CE's, Jedi Trainer and a bit of surviving skills. He's not going to lead the charge, that's for sure but he is a big helper. He's not the uber killer ur looking for.
Echo24 wrote:
Although I guess you think Mace is "seriously undercosted", which I've said a lot about (to review: he isn't).

~70. Then he would be like a Lord Vader but in a Republic squad.

Echo24 wrote:

As for him being Rebel with a lightsaber, this is Yoda right at the end of RotS; basically he's just like the Darth Vader, Sith Apprentice that came out in MotF. That was a "Vader" who is Imperial but NOT in his armor (it's just Anakin) because he's from the same point (the very end of RotS, after the Empire has technically been created but before/during his duel with Obi-Wan on Mustafar).

Still not a Rebel character.
Anakin joines/switches sides during film and acts on it- he becomes Darth Vader the moment he pledges his loyalty to Palps. From this point now he is a Sith (and in that times being Sith means being in Imperial faction)- although technically Empire is created later on. At least we get to see him with lightaber in action. //Crap I remeber this big thread about making Sith Vader/Anakin. I voted for nay.

Yoda at the end of film afer his duel with Palps is still Republic character. He goes into exile and nobody sees him until Starkillers clone arrives and later on Luke. By training Luke he becomes a Rebel character. Or is running away in a small space shuttle that made him Rebel? I didn't see any lightsaber then Flapper

Boris wrote:
No WotC version of most uniques are considered competitive. We are working to put movie heroes in the competitive game and I won't apologize for that.

Ouch. I'm sorry but that just means that nearly all uniques will be replaced with newer, a bit undercosted, special abities/force powers packed versions. While I do agree that we need revisions of many (new Grievious- love him!), but some ground rules should be placed. I may be overestimating here but by following that logic old WotC pieces which are nowdays considered competetive in a few sets will need to be replaced just because they won't be able to keep up with other pieces.
saber1
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:27:28 PM
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I can see him working well with Epic Luke
AndyHatton
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:30:59 PM
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Kazdan and Shaak Ti aren't exactly "Rebels" but they stood against the empire and survivied Order 66. Hence Rebel affinity. Is it perfect? No, but I think Yoda fits nicely into the spot as well.
Boris
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:40:08 PM
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AndyHatton wrote:
Kazdan and Shaak Ti aren't exactly "Rebels" but they stood against the empire and survivied Order 66. Hence Rebel affinity. Is it perfect? No, but I think Yoda fits nicely into the spot as well.


This.

Also, by your logic komix, Obi-Wan Kenobi should never have been Rebel, either. He fought and defeated Darth Vader, declaring in the process that his "loyalty is to the Republic, to democracy," before going into hiding on Tatooine. Princess Leia requested his help on behalf of her father - who was killed before Obi-Wan ever arrived to meet him - and then he died almost immediately after in his final fight with his former apprentice. So when exactly did he become part of the Rebel Alliance? And yet... BigGrin
komix
Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:44:58 PM
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AndyHatton wrote:
Kazdan and Shaak Ti aren't exactly "Rebels" but they stood against the empire and survivied Order 66. Hence Rebel affinity. Is it perfect? No, but I think Yoda fits nicely into the spot as well.


Yep that's true but Kazdan and Shaak fought with Empire (Starkiller) round about time when Rebel faction was created. Makes more logic than giving old "wizard of Oz", who had chosen the exile becase he lost duel with Palps and went to study Force with Qui-Gon-Jinn's ghost, a fighting ability, for all we know he wasn't using lightsaber even since.
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