I tried to make a poll about activation and their effect on the game but sadly polls don't seem to be working at the moment.

Looking at all of those tournament winning squads I can't help but notice the huge number of activations in them and more importantly available to them. I wonder if it isn't overkill and detrimental to the game because when you need all of those three (or two) point pieces for activations that pushed out other pieces that could be used thus limiting variety.

I know in the early days of DDM there wasn't an activation limit but you quickly say warbands filled with massive swarms of three point Orc Warriors. Needing to move all of those pieces slows the game down but also created the environment where you need to play the same way unless you get overrun, or worse over clocked. A rules changed dropped the warband max size down to eight units and you suddenly get a lot more variety it what was competitive. Admittedly most bands filled out the available slots and there were some ways around it but there was still a ceiling.

IIRC a big reason SWM didn't include a max squad size was because of the various rules, most notablely combined fire, that allowed units to be useful without activating. That may still happen but now days it seems people play activations just to stall games. This can be stalling so you can activate you big guns without worrying about what an out activated opponent can do to interfer with them this turn or it can be stalling by clogging things up with "insignificant" fodder to prevent the opponent from being able to engage. Is this stalling really a good thing and the main reason for using all the fodder or does the fodder actually help you win by taking out enemies instead of letting someone else do that?

Would the game improve and see more variety if squads were limited to say twelve activations per turn? I'm not saying you include a hardcap on unit numbers but rather a limit on how many can be used in a turn. Of course someone like Ozzel can still change how those activations are distributed but you wouldn't need to wait through someone moving a dozen mouse droids before the beef actually starts doing anything.

While I'm talking about mouse droids they point out another reason I think the current huge activation numbers hurts, it means players have to aquire all of those cheap pieces. Looking at the demographics thread it appears that many members here have collections that don't blink when a squad says it needs a dozen mice but what of any new players who have a hard time aquiring the good fodder they'd need to compete? You may say the could just "borrow" them but that isn't always an option and lacks a certain amount of satisfaction.

I think the V-Set game designers (and even the WotC designers) are finding ways to address this, albeit indirectly.

Although Backlash (which works well in a high activation setting) was introduced in R&R, both V-Sets have a fair amount of Cunning Attack/Ambush (especially for the Sith and Old Rep). These are two abilities that "penalize" you for delaying activation.

There are also some abilities that offer a benefit for defeating an opponent (see the Rakghoul and the Sith Leviathan). I suspect we're going to see more things like that... Things that make it increasingly dangerous to field tons of little guys (which are what ups the activation).

Add to that a larger number of ways to counter commander effects and activation control, and large numbers of low-cost characters aren't quite the "sure thing" they were even a year or two ago.

I don't think high activation will ever go away as a legitimate option (nor should it), but I think the game is gradually moving toward a time where many different options are equally viable.

i understand that it has become a problem for some people who have 18+ activations but you have to realize one thing. As far as i know ddm doesnt have reserves or reinforcements, and they also have several areas to gain points so it makes it a little different. Now other than that i think jester is right. The squad i was playing at gen con didnt have alot of extra fodder, and except for a few bad matchups i think it did pretty well. It depends on how you play. I dont like in most cases to hide behind a wall of scrubs because i like to play quick

I have to agree with you on all of this. i think gha should have cost at least 10 more(with more abilities to back it up). Reinforcements and reserves would be worthless or close to it if you cut the number of activations, and activation controll would rule over everything.

to be honest i absolutely hate the combo of gha and mouse droids. THe only squad i have ever used it is my seperatist droid squads, because he is useful for purposes other than cheap mice in a sep squad.

In the team tournament I played a 7 activation squad. I went 2-1 in our 3 games, and the loss was not because of activations (although my opponent did have like 20 in that game) it was because of his ridiculous rolling. He rolled in the first 3 rounds 6-7 crits, and when he failed to crit, every attack was a 16 or higher (needing either 13 or higher to hit). In round 3, I won init and used SS, he made the save on every one of his damage dealers (2x because it was Naga), only failing with an ug and a mouse. I beat two squads that both out activated me by at least double.

It's not so much that activations are "out of control" it's that it's becoming a bit of a crutch. Sure, it's a good strategy to out activate your opponent, quite often a winning one. I should know, wrote the article on this years ago lol. But there's always been a balance point to it as well. The deal is, that the advantages given by mass activations make the game a bit more forgivable and therefore easier to win. It's harder to play a lower activation squad as any mistake is then magnified by your inability to act to "fix" it while your opponent moves all his damage dealers after you are done. But if you don't make a lot of those, a well designed squad with lower activations can often do quite well. Ian's winning squad is a good example of a "beef" squad that works on this principle. My 7 activation squad is a Sith squad that depends on 2 high defense beats with double Sith Sorcery. If I don't move up carefully I can lose a key figure before I engage. But in most of my games with the squad, oddly enough, I love facing high act squads.

There are a couple of reasons. 1st, obviously Sith Sorcery is more fun against more figures. But more importantly, is the style of play. With Darth Revan and Naga, I have no problem running into the middle of my opponent's figures and using Sith Sorcery right away. Anyone I get that round, is great. And as it happens, people with more activations naturally want to wait me out because they are afraid of making a mistake, which of course plays directly into my hand. They often don't know it, but they likely already made the mistake in a previous round - which I then pounce on first and take away their ability to respond (which in a way, is the same idea that out activating tends to run on).

Other squads that function well with low activations, Yodabuck and Double Lancer (I think it worth noting that despite all the complaints about the "abuse" of single Lancer mass activations, the only Lancers to make the top 8 in either of the last two Gencons were in the hands of Urbanjedi, playing 2, no San Hill, no MTB). They do well because they can eliminate the advantage of high activations and then turn it around on the opponent (who just lost 30-40pts worth of minis for nothing so they are now playing a game 200 vs 160). JWM swarms, Wookiee squads, Vong JH squads, etc all do fairly well against high act squads.

One last thing. Please stop complaining about Gha, his power is greatly exaggerated. If you are inserting Gha simply to allow Lobot to bring 10 mice, please do the math and figure out how many mice you could have without Gha in the squad. Correct, the answer is 10. It only starts to matter if you are beginning with 2-3 in the base squad. Mouse walls aren't even that great of a strategy. Generally speaking, all you are doing is taking advantage of the weakness of the opposing squad when you do it. Oh look, your squad has only melee attackers without flight? Hmm, guess I will be oh so clever and bring 10 mice to clog hallways. Yeah, that makes for a fun strategic game... Please. In tournaments, ask people how often they actually bring 10 mice, and how often that meant they won the game. It's not nearly as powerful as the common speak would have you believe.

There is a reason I say Yobuck and to a lesser extent Lancer are good for the game. Those 2 pieces alone make it not worth running a ton of fodder with your squad. High Activation squads usually (but not always) have squishier pieces doing most of the work in the squad. Meaning if you run a bunch of tough guys that are hard to kill (read:Ian's Battlemaster squad). Then you can simply outlast them and get your kills. Setting an act limit is not a good idea unless your banning tempo control. And banning any figure opens a can of worms we really don't want to open.

The game has tons of options, limiting them in any way is a bad idea.

I'm happy that this thread is remaining civil. I see the points for and against high activation so it seems to be a good discussion topic. I know there are some horde squads that actually make "good" use of high activation (I have a youngling squad I'd love to see how well it plays.) and I also realize that it is possible to go overboard on activations. I know there are counters to hordes but should playing them seem as necessary as it sometimes does?

To address a couple of other things in the posts:
DDM did have reinforcements/reserves although they aren't called that; it had minions (a more limited form of reinforcements) to add pieces at the start and also summons to add figures later.
Even with some kind of activation limit I would not do it as a figure limit; I still want battle droids to combine fire like they were initially intended to do.
Perhaps equating high activations with stalling is too strong when stalling has a specific tournament definition but trying to move more pieces in the "perfect" manner does make things take longer.

Well said. But even limiting mice isn't going to solve this. It's been a question for the game since the summer of 2006.

"Buying a win" has always been an issue with collectable games. MtG is a great example of that especially as you get to use bigger and older card sets. The flood of mice certainly is one of my bigger beefs with high activation squads; at least if you run rodians, uggies, or even ewoks you can win with those while mouse droids may help you win their purpose seems to be annoyance when run in huge numbers.

Now I don't know what "fairly expensive" entails but paying upwards of $30 (GGDAC) for a single mini that I can actually build a squad around isn't horrific and many of the versitile support singles should be available for half of that or less. I guess I don't have a terrible problem with "expensive" uniques that can go in many squads but fielding a bunch of uncommons/commons that retail for more than usable rares is barely acceptable.

Going rates on ebay have dropped. GGDAC is under $20 now. Sometimes under $15. Mouse droids are now $5 or less.