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Broken Mace? Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, September 4, 2011 8:25:36 AM
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Here are a couple of squads with the new Mace. Which do you prefer? Comments welcome. More importantly, if the new Mace is broken (as some say), what is the top, unbeatable squad?

--Broken GMAce Swap--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
47 General Skywalker
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
9 Rodian Brute x3
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 11 activations)
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/109561/broken-gmace



--Greater Mobile Republic--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
47 General Skywalker
33 Captain Rex
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 R7 Astromech Droid
6 Mouse Droid x2
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(199pts. 9 activations)
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/109521/greater-mobile-republic
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, September 4, 2011 11:08:31 AM
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Or, if you prefer YoBuck over GenSky:

--MaceBuck Swap--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
51 Yoda on Kybuck
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
5 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist
3 Rodian Brute

(200pts. 9 activations)
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/109571/macebuck-swap


You could fit in everything if you went with neither a shooter nor R2AM, but I don't think this is the best option:

--MaceSkyBuck Swap--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
51 Yoda on Kybuck
47 General Skywalker
23 Captain Panaka
8 Mas Amedda
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(200pts. 7 activations)
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/109572/maceskybuck-swap
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 5:34:10 AM
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For my money, I think this is the best Mace can get (although I do really want to try a Gungan Shieldbearer, Mace tank squad as well.

--Macealor the Ultimate--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
33 Captain Rex
24 Commander Ahsoka
24 Republic Commando Darman
13 Chagrian Mercenary Commander
11 Human Bodyguard
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
5 Salacious Crumb
5 Spaarti Clone Trooper Demolitionist
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 11 activations)
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 5:42:26 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

--Broken GMAce Swap--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
47 General Skywalker
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
9 Rodian Brute x3
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 11 activations)
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/109561/broken-gmace


I actually think this is the way to go. I don't like Mace without Swap, as against shooter-heavy squads (especially swarm-y ones) Mace will go in and kill something and then just be left out to dry. Trading Mace for an IG-86 is not a good trade, lol.

Bill's squad has something going for it also, but I'd still probably drop Ahsoka for Panaka. Really good players are able to prevent a really good Rolling Cleave, but Rex/Darman are a good choice for backup shooting. You can then drop the Chagrian, Human BG, and Ugnaught for Lobot if you want.
jak
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 5:44:47 AM
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Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
Unsure NEWindu with swap-n-heal option


-yo-win-pa--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
51 Yoda on Kybuck
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
9 Polis Massa Medic
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 12 Kaminoan Medic
(Lobot) 8 R7 Astromech Droid

(200pts. 10 activations)
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:06:32 AM
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I'm not sold on the idea of the Chagrian for Mace because if he gets a crit, whatever he's attacking is probably dead anyway. 20 more damage won't mean much.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:58:14 AM
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Bill's Shieldbearer idea sounds very interesting.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 7:29:07 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I'm not sold on the idea of the Chagrian for Mace because if he gets a crit, whatever he's attacking is probably dead anyway. 20 more damage won't mean much.


Ah but you are missing the point. The point it to kill sooner. There is a pretty big difference in what you can kill with one 60/80dmg hit (crit/flurry) and what you can kill with an 80/100. The real point of stacking more damage is that Mace has to kill everything he goes after. Well, if I'm playing for luck, better darn well make sure I nail it everytime I do get lucky. Also look at this.

Mace vs something with 140hps (This covers a lot of pieces). Let's assume Mace gets 1 crit on his triple, plus hits all of the other 3 attacks (triple/flurry). That's a max of 120dmg. With the CMC you get to 140. Pretty big difference. I'm not saying its necessary damage, but it's pretty awesome. A lot of times you are going to need Mace to kill 2 things in a round, not just one, the +20 can often help you do that (think trying to kill 2 100hp pieces for example - normally will take him a crit/flurry/hit using up 2 attacks - with RC and +20 dmg, you get not only an extra attack in there, but also can kill them in 1 crit/flurry - which when you do the math, means that if lucky and the crit comes on the first attack, you still have 4 attacks left to make on target 2 for the second crit). Heck, with this you can actually kill 2 120hp figures by simply getting 1 crit on each figure. That's just silly :)

Now, I promised a Mace tank squad idea, here I made one.

--Mace the Tank--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
55 Yoda
27 Ferus Olin
18 Gungan Shieldbearer
18 Jar Jar Binks
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda

(200pts. 7 activations)

Of course simply using the Gungan SB alone will be enough to protect Mace on the way in that I'd probably consider just inserting him into any of my other Mace squads (dropping CMC and HBG for it in the one I posted before). But with this, Mace should not die to shooters ever, in fact you can run him and the tank set up right at your opponent right from the start. Mace/JarJar take point, with the SB behind and Ferus BGing Mace/Yoda. I considered not using Jar Jar and having a BG for the SB, or dropping Ferus for a cheaper attacker and a cheap BG, but when I looked at this, this is how I would run it. Yoda makes those expensive LS Reflect Saves easier, and is a great mini on his own.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 8:08:05 AM
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billiv15 wrote:

Ah but you are missing the point. The point it to kill sooner. There is a pretty big difference in what you can kill with one 60/80dmg hit (crit/flurry) and what you can kill with an 80/100. The real point of stacking more damage is that Mace has to kill everything he goes after. Well, if I'm playing for luck, better darn well make sure I nail it everytime I do get lucky. Also look at this.


Not missing the point, just not convinced that the situation of Mace getting a crit but not killing the enemy would come up often enough to warrant the Chagrian. RC does make it more worthwhile, though, since he's more likely to have another victim nearby if he gets a kill one attack sooner. When it shakes out after a few tournaments or even regionals/gencon next year, I just get the feeling the top-tier Mace squads won't have a Chagrian in them. Of course, you're more likely than me to be commanding said squad, so feel free to prove me wrong. :-)

I think the tank squad looks great, but with only one relatively fragile door-control piece, it seems pretty dependent on what map it's on.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 8:27:02 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
billiv15 wrote:

Ah but you are missing the point. The point it to kill sooner. There is a pretty big difference in what you can kill with one 60/80dmg hit (crit/flurry) and what you can kill with an 80/100. The real point of stacking more damage is that Mace has to kill everything he goes after. Well, if I'm playing for luck, better darn well make sure I nail it everytime I do get lucky. Also look at this.


Not missing the point, just not convinced that the situation of Mace getting a crit but not killing the enemy would come up often enough to warrant the Chagrian. RC does make it more worthwhile, though, since he's more likely to have another victim nearby if he gets a kill one attack sooner. When it shakes out after a few tournaments or even regionals/gencon next year, I just get the feeling the top-tier Mace squads won't have a Chagrian in them. Of course, you're more likely than me to be commanding said squad, so feel free to prove me wrong. :-)

I think the tank squad looks great, but with only one relatively fragile door-control piece, it seems pretty dependent on what map it's on.


Agreed on both points. I mostly don't like the Chagrian because I don't like Ahsoka either, but if you're going the route of Ahsoka I can see the CMC being useful so if you get the early crit you can do more damage to the character you get with Rolling Cleave.

And you'd better believe that I'm chasing R2 down like a crazy person in the Tank squad. It's really, really annoying, but with single override as your only door control, only 7 activations, and not a single shooter, it's got some definite problems that can be exploited. Like for example, at some point in each round your phalanx of Mace + Jar Jar + GS will be separated from each other; that's the time to strike, since the squad only really works when it's all together. A single Lancer squad would do incredibly well against it also, as the Lancer flies around Mace and kills everybody else then the 86s rip him apart.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 8:51:58 AM
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You'd think that, but in 2009, a squad very similar to the tank version made the top 8 at Gencon and took Deri (the eventual champ) down to the wire in the first round of 8. You can drop Mas for two ugos if that makes you feel better, but it's not that hard to move properly with it. Here's how it goes. You move the hiding figs early (often Yoda) then in one phase, tow the SB or the pointman (Jar Jar or Mace depending on situation) and run the other into base with the second activation.

Remember guys, I'm not making the "tournament verisons" at the moment either, these are merely the concept drawings. For a large tournament, I probably go the route of dropping Ferus. But before I did that, I'd like to see how well I can manage with these few. Even with a Human/Gammorean BG and pure activations for Ferus, you are still going to be out activated by nearly everything so I doubt it matters much. 7-12 is pretty much the same thing in about 90% of your games. The point is that you don't necessarily care. They can't shoot you at range without accurate shot, and can only do that at the end of a round anyway. And even then, all you are doing is trying to pick off R2. Which if I'm going with this squad to a tournament, you'd better believe I'm more aware than you that R2 can't die early to stupidity. I don't think Yoda is all that important either, and you could simply drop him for other things. It's just the ability to reroll Reflect and Bombad Gungan is just too much fun. But if you want the "competitive" version, I'll be right back with it. You guys are no fun :) Remember, the point of this thread was to make the most abusive Mace squad, which I believe I have done.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:00:02 AM
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Here's the Lame shooter version for those who can't play small activation melee based squads without tons of crutches :)

--Mace the Tank Competitive--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
33 Captain Rex
27 Lobot
24 Republic Commando Darman
18 Gungan Shieldbearer
18 Jar Jar Binks
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 11 Human Bodyguard
(Lobot) 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(200pts. 12 activations)

Here's another fun competitive version of it without Lobot.
--Mace the Tank Competitive X2--
65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
33 Captain Rex
24 Republic Commando Darman
21 Houjix
18 Gungan Shieldbearer
18 Jar Jar Binks
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
5 Salacious Crumb
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(199pts. 10 activations)
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:18:32 AM
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I think that "broken" and "good" kind of go hand in hand. Flapper

Also, that squad in 2009 was a Yobuck squad, which is actually a significant difference. Low-activation squads do much better if they're based around a mass killer like Yobuck or Lancer (note that Double Lancer is pretty low on activations) than if they're based on more of a single-target nuke like Mace.

In your first competitive version you're leaving 3 points of Reinforcements on the table, which would let you do 3 Uggies. I don't think 5 uggies are necessary, though, so I'd spend the points to upgrade the HBG to the Gammorrean, or keep it as is and drop the 2 Uggies in the base squad for Salacious.
njarnagin
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 12:22:05 PM
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Some interesting squads here.

I think it would be interesting to pair Mace and the new Obiwan (with Use the Force) with the Chargrin Merc.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 12:30:20 PM
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billiv15 wrote:

Remember guys, I'm not making the "tournament verisons" at the moment either, these are merely the concept drawings.... Remember, the point of this thread was to make the most abusive Mace squad, which I believe I have done.


I'm not sure how to reconcile those two statements. The point of the thread was to find the best/most abusive/competitive/broken tournament Mace squad. It was more of a challenge for those who were claiming Mace is broken, but they haven't really shown up to defend the statements with concrete squad proposals. I know you weren't one of the people making that claim, so thanks for contributing, and thanks for upgrading the squad from the 'fun' tank to the competitive version. :-)
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 2:46:18 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
billiv15 wrote:

Remember guys, I'm not making the "tournament verisons" at the moment either, these are merely the concept drawings.... Remember, the point of this thread was to make the most abusive Mace squad, which I believe I have done.


I'm not sure how to reconcile those two statements. The point of the thread was to find the best/most abusive/competitive/broken tournament Mace squad. It was more of a challenge for those who were claiming Mace is broken, but they haven't really shown up to defend the statements with concrete squad proposals. I know you weren't one of the people making that claim, so thanks for contributing, and thanks for upgrading the squad from the 'fun' tank to the competitive version. :-)


Well, I will try to break any piece, including the one's I help make :) So no problem there.

As for the difference, I suppose it depends on what you are looking for. I would probably take a 7 activation squad to a tournament, in fact I have. But I'm not going to convince anyone that a 7 activation squad is anywhere near top tier that doesn't include any shooters, so it's a lost cause, even if I think the squad played right, could beat many of the top tier stuff.

Think of it like this. The "best" Yoda on Kybuck squad was what I called, "Yodabuck Maximum" that I made right after release. It had General Sky, Commander Ashoka, Panaka and Dash. This is the "best" version. However, for tournament play where you don't know the opposing squads well (assuming a large enough tournament that you can't readily guess what you will be facing as opposed to a small event where you might know the 1-2 other players who can beat you and you know what they like to run), the Lobot version is more competitive, but not as powerful. But that's only because it sacrifices its power for more versatility. But the most powerful version is still the one with Ashoka.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 2:55:05 PM
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billiv15 wrote:


Think of it like this. The "best" Yoda on Kybuck squad was what I called, "Yodabuck Maximum" that I made right after release. It had General Sky, Commander Ashoka, Panaka and Dash. This is the "best" version. However, for tournament play where you don't know the opposing squads well (assuming a large enough tournament that you can't readily guess what you will be facing as opposed to a small event where you might know the 1-2 other players who can beat you and you know what they like to run), the Lobot version is more competitive, but not as powerful. But that's only because it sacrifices its power for more versatility. But the most powerful version is still the one with Ashoka.


Well... obviously. The more powerful version of any squad with Lobot is to replace him with an attacker or commander that provides attacks. But more powerful does not equal better by any stretch in this game. Competitive does (or at least can, and in the context of this particular thread does) equate to better. Which would make the Lobot version of the Yobuck squad "best", at least in the context of this thread.

"Best" depends on what you're looking for. If I were to pick a squad that is the "best" while looking for something that's just fun to play, I'd probably pick my Mystery Map squad. I love playing that squad, it's neat and it's themed and it's fun and it's good enough to not lose too much (heck, I got first in the Mystery Map tournament with it!). However, while discussing competitive squads, or broken squads, or strongest squad (strongest in what will beat the opponent most often, not as in straight damage output or anything), then it doesn't even enter my mind. I felt it was clear that the OP was defining "best" in this way.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 3:06:22 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
I felt it was clear that the OP was defining "best" in this way.


Thanks. Though I never gave a definition, by "top, unbeatable" I did in fact mean at a top-level tournament like GenCon versus unknown opponents. My apologies if there was any confusion.
Weeks
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 4:25:10 PM
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I still say bringing in 4 caamasi nobles stops most if not all of the threat of mace. You beat him the same way you beat GMLS, you just shoot him. Even if you don't have shooters he has no way to stop melee damage from going on him so use a bg to absorb the riposte. Mace is one of those figs you just tweek your strategy against, he isn't a piece you change your squad building to beat.
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:03:34 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
I felt it was clear that the OP was defining "best" in this way.


Thanks. Though I never gave a definition, by "top, unbeatable" I did in fact mean at a top-level tournament like GenCon versus unknown opponents. My apologies if there was any confusion.


It was the "unbeatable" part that suggested you were looking for the most abusive squad. I don't believe any Mace squad to be more than tier 2.
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