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Competitive All-Melee Squads Options
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 3:14:49 PM
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Following on from some discussions in the Mace thread, what factions and builds can succeed in competitive games without including a specialised shooter? I'm not counting a piece like Captain Panaka, for instance, as a specialised shooter.

Issues with having an all-melee team:
i) Can't get through a diplomat walls
ii) Can be significantly slowed down by mouse walls
iii) Will have problems against a big piece with Riposte or Djem So, like the new Mace, Vader Scourge of the Jedi, or GMLS.

Abilities that make an all-melee team more feasible:
i) The ability to kill diplomats - eg Indiscriminate, or Lord Vader's Overwhelming Force/Sweep combo
ii) Force Leap
iii) Levitation
iv) Force Repulse/Thought Bomb/Unleash The Force
v) Flight/Tow cable

So based on this, I think you can build the following all-melee squads and do OK:
i) Imperial - a Jarael/Lord Vader swap squad is viable.
ii) New Republic with Levitation - I guess you can put something together with Ganner/Anakin and someone like Jaina Solo SotJ or Kol Skywalker. You have to leave strong pieces like Mara Jade Jedi and Han Solo Galactic Hero on the bench though. [edited: I forgot Mara was non-melee]
iii) Old Republic - Jedi Battlemasters have Force Leap.
iv) Vong - a few different options - the Firebreather lets you get right through walls of mouse droids and diplomats, but I don't know how tier 1 it is in other ways? And Sheodai Shai has Indiscriminate as well.

And these are maybe viable, but a lot more marginal:
v) Sith - Thought Bomb with Lord Kaan? It's not a good trade if you have to sacrifice Kaan to kill a wall of three Camaasi Nobles though.
vi) Republic - Doombot can tow someone over a diplomat wall. But he's likely to die once he's inside the wall, and unless you can keep swapping in attackers, you only really get one or two attacks off.

What other all-melee teams can work?
CC-23478
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 3:50:36 PM
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Rolling cleave via ahsoka can negate mouse walls
creme_brule
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 4:30:24 PM
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Just a side note, I would consider Mara a specialized shooter, since she can deal a decent amount (up to 40) mobile or up to 80 using 1 FP. Bonus if she's adjacent b/c then she can do her powerhouse 120 assault.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 4:31:56 PM
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Lightsaber Assault only works when adjacent, so I'm not sure how she gets to 80 as a shooter.
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 4:33:03 PM
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creme_brule wrote:
Just a side note, I would consider Mara a specialized shooter, since she can deal a decent amount (up to 40) mobile or up to 80 using 1 FP. Bonus if she's adjacent b/c then she can do her powerhouse 120 assault.


Good point - oops!
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 4:37:15 PM
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1. Diplomat walls aren't that terrible. They are only annoying if you are 100% melee. If they include that many Diplomats, chances are you will get to kill one pretty soon.
2. Republic has Yobuck, clears all walls.
3. The Thought Bomb is more of a deterrent with Kaan. I would not pop it just to clear a few mice.

Sith makes Melee work, because of their big beats are Melee, and they have good boosters like Bandon.

Lightsaber Assault is only against adjacent enemies, this is in the FULL glossary defination. So, she might as well be Melee, since that is where her power comes from.

Melee squads can compete. The thing is, they are tougher to run, thus not as likely to do well unless you are comfortable with the squad.
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 4:57:49 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Melee squads can compete. The thing is, they are tougher to run, thus not as likely to do well unless you are comfortable with the squad.


I'm not trying to argue that melee is weaker than shooters, or anything like that. I'm more trying to think of squads that are virtually 100% melee that can cope without a decent backup shooter.
Mando
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:07:45 AM
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The Vong really don't have much of a choice, since all peices have melee attack except for Nom Anor. Sheadao Shai is your counter to noble walls and Slayers are your counter to mouse droid walls. The Firebreather can be good, but you need to be careful not to fry you own stuff. Of course there is always Shimra and Nom bombs that can run up a 4 pt worker and blow him up and take out mice. Noble walls are definetly a deterant to a peice like Yobuck who uses Galloping Attack. One counter i found effective to combating noble walls was actually quite humorous. Dr.Evazan. Yes, you can use Homicidal surgery on nobles since it doesn't count as an attack. So, maybe we will start to see more Dr.E in the future. Not only that, but Dr.E is a perfect fit for the Vong as he can activate Scarification on any Vong peice.

Something people tend to forget about is a force power called Force Burst. There are only 2 minis with this power, but it is VERY effective at taking out Mice/Noble Walls. Ghhhk is also another peice that can help to deal with the walls.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 8:13:55 AM
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Lol @ Dr. Evazan. Adding him to my Lobot reinforcements kit. BlooMilk
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 8:35:25 AM
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Well... a melee squad just won gencon. Just putting it out there that melee is not the restriction that it used to be.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 8:43:26 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Well... a melee squad just won gencon. Just putting it out there that melee is not the restriction that it used to be.


Keep in mind that that squad had few tricks that helped it overcome its disadvantage of being all melee. Force Leap on most of the attackers is a big one. If you have an all-melee squad that can't get through a wall (of either Mouse Droids or Caamasi Nobles or whatever), then you will have a LOT of trouble, just as much as ever.

To make a good all-melee squad that's one of the biggest things now; being able to get through opponent's walls of characters. The current map list helps advancement, but if you can't get past a wall of Nobles, there's literally nothing you can do. To fully overcome this you really need to be able to get your WHOLE squad over that wall, or at least a lot of it; with something like R2-AD, you can get a single character over, but then R2 will probably die and it will be your one single piece that got over fighting your opponent's entire squad while your squad sits behind the Nobles and watches.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 9:42:01 AM
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One Republic melee piece that can deal with a diplomat wall is Roron Corobb. He's not that great once he uses his Force Repulse though, but I guess he's an option for a new Mace swap squad.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:21:08 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Well... a melee squad just won gencon. Just putting it out there that melee is not the restriction that it used to be.


Keep in mind that that squad had few tricks that helped it overcome its disadvantage of being all melee. Force Leap on most of the attackers is a big one. If you have an all-melee squad that can't get through a wall (of either Mouse Droids or Caamasi Nobles or whatever), then you will have a LOT of trouble, just as much as ever.

To make a good all-melee squad that's one of the biggest things now; being able to get through opponent's walls of characters. The current map list helps advancement, but if you can't get past a wall of Nobles, there's literally nothing you can do. To fully overcome this you really need to be able to get your WHOLE squad over that wall, or at least a lot of it; with something like R2-AD, you can get a single character over, but then R2 will probably die and it will be your one single piece that got over fighting your opponent's entire squad while your squad sits behind the Nobles and watches.



I am pretty sure you can lightsaber sweep nobles right? If so, there are plenty of characters in the republic faction that can deal with noble walls.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:27:15 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
I am pretty sure you can lightsaber sweep nobles right? If so, there are plenty of characters in the republic faction that can deal with noble walls.


Only if you have the combination of Overwhelming Force and Lightsaber Sweep like Lord Vader - there's a thread about it here: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=2441
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:34:03 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I am pretty sure you can lightsaber sweep nobles right? If so, there are plenty of characters in the republic faction that can deal with noble walls.


Only if you have the combination of Overwhelming Force and Lightsaber Sweep like Lord Vader - there's a thread about it here: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=2441


awesome, makes it a little harder for you to deal with noble walls, for sure, but I still believe it is pretty simple to do with all the stuff republic can bring to the table, walking through walls, towcable, swap....
creme_brule
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:37:52 PM
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Mando wrote:
Something people tend to forget about is a force power called Force Burst. There are only 2 minis with this power, but it is VERY effective at taking out Mice/Noble Walls.


The thing is the two characters who have it are so obsolete that its not ever worth it. However, you are correct. It is definitely good for killing mouse walls....and those pesky MTBs as well.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:43:53 PM
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creme_brule wrote:
Mando wrote:
Something people tend to forget about is a force power called Force Burst. There are only 2 minis with this power, but it is VERY effective at taking out Mice/Noble Walls.


The thing is the two characters who have it are so obsolete that its not ever worth it. However, you are correct. It is definitely good for killing mouse walls....and those pesky MTBs as well.


I believe we'll be seeing more of that power in the future.
Jester007
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2011 11:36:25 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Well... a melee squad just won gencon. Just putting it out there that melee is not the restriction that it used to be.


Keep in mind that that squad had few tricks that helped it overcome its disadvantage of being all melee. Force Leap on most of the attackers is a big one. If you have an all-melee squad that can't get through a wall (of either Mouse Droids or Caamasi Nobles or whatever), then you will have a LOT of trouble, just as much as ever.


Which is why I really liked the Jedi Battlemasters over the Weapon Masters. I ran extensive testing on a Republic JWM squad, and I kept running into the problem of getting past someone's wall. R2 Towing someone over helped, but I could only get one person over and R2 usually ended up dying soon afterwards. I liked the Force Leap option the JBMs had so I could ignore all the scrubs and go after the core of an opponent's squad (it also threw some people off in a few cases).

Sincerely,
Jester007
billiv15
Posted: Friday, September 9, 2011 2:00:26 AM
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Jester007 wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Well... a melee squad just won gencon. Just putting it out there that melee is not the restriction that it used to be.


Keep in mind that that squad had few tricks that helped it overcome its disadvantage of being all melee. Force Leap on most of the attackers is a big one. If you have an all-melee squad that can't get through a wall (of either Mouse Droids or Caamasi Nobles or whatever), then you will have a LOT of trouble, just as much as ever.


Which is why I really liked the Jedi Battlemasters over the Weapon Masters. I ran extensive testing on a Republic JWM squad, and I kept running into the problem of getting past someone's wall. R2 Towing someone over helped, but I could only get one person over and R2 usually ended up dying soon afterwards. I liked the Force Leap option the JBMs had so I could ignore all the scrubs and go after the core of an opponent's squad (it also threw some people off in a few cases).

Sincerely,
Jester007


Yes, I'm a little concerned with some of the comments saying the JBM swarm is not a tier 1 squad. While I don't have to claim it's the new "gatekeeper" as some without real backing to that opinion have claimed, the JBMs have the ability to overcome many of the problems inherent in the game for all melee squads. Although as I am sure you would agree, the reason for it being all melee is that there were not any support shooters that really fit or did as much as simply another JBM could offer. However I think that changes with RaR. Right away, I would drop a JBM and insert Atton. I also like the idea of an Atton/Carth/KC with 2 JBMs, Seer and Bastilla - a classic jedi interference build.

But back to JBMs in general, Lou has been running them in swarm fashion at all point levels with great success this entire year, just like Ian has. There was no reason to doubt other than simply having not seen it before I suppose.
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, September 9, 2011 4:17:27 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I am pretty sure you can lightsaber sweep nobles right? If so, there are plenty of characters in the republic faction that can deal with noble walls.


Only if you have the combination of Overwhelming Force and Lightsaber Sweep like Lord Vader - there's a thread about it here: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=2441


Lightsaber sweep does not use targeting rules, so it can be used on diplomats regardless of whether or not you have overwhelming force.
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