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Telekinetic combat Options
kfc's waiting for you
Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 7:45:39 PM
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If an enemy is adjacent to Traya can she still attack someone say 3 squares away?
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:15:38 PM
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Yes.

Think of Telekinetic Combat as a fusion of Melee Reach and Lightsaber Throw. When Traya makes an attack on her own turn, all enemies within 6 squares are considered legal targets (like Melee Reach) and any attacks made against characters not physically adjacent become non-melee (similar to Lightsaber Throw).
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:27:33 AM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
Yes.

Think of Telekinetic Combat as a fusion of Melee Reach and Lightsaber Throw. When Traya makes an attack on her own turn, all enemies within 6 squares are considered legal targets (like Melee Reach) and any attacks made against characters not physically adjacent become non-melee (similar to Lightsaber Throw).


I'm going to have to double check, but I do not believe this is the case with Telekinetic Combat. Think, old Melee Reach in a lot of ways.
countrydude82487
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:56:14 AM
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i think she would have to attack the adjacent character because at that point that is the only legal target
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:58:29 AM
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countrydude82487 wrote:
i think she would have to attack the adjacent character because at that point that is the only legal target


The wording says all characters within 6 squares are legal targets. Not just that she can attack them but that they are legal targets, apparently bypassing the rule that you can only attack adjacent characters if any character is adjacent. I'd wait for Sithborg, though, first.
Jester007
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:29:39 PM
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Well, the wording for TC says that they MAY attack targets 6 squares away. I don't think this allows Traya to attack someone 6 squares away if there's someone adjacent to her. She still must obey targetting rules. But as mentioned before, we will await the ruling from Sithborg.

Sincerely,
Jester007
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:42:33 PM
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Jester, I agree regarding what's on the card.

Here's the glossary entry (quoting jedispyder here):

Telekinetic Combat
When making an attack on its own turn, this character treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets. Even if this character can only attack adjacent enemies (due to abilities such as Melee Attack), this character can attack nonadjacent enemies who are within 6 squares. Any attack made against a nonadjacent target will count as a nonmelee attack for abilities such as Evade or Lightsaber Deflect. Nonmelee attacks ignore abilities that Lightsaber Throw ignores, such as Damage Reduction or Dark Armor.


"treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets" sounds to me like it overrides normal targeting rules. This was asked in the FAQ thread at gamers but no definitive answer was given.
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:20:58 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

"treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets" sounds to me like it overrides normal targeting rules. This was asked in the FAQ thread at gamers but no definitive answer was given.


The thing is, it doesn't say that it ignores cover or adjacency. When things are ignored, it tends to state it. Much like other abilities, ALL the rules must be obeyed.

So, Telekinetic Combat follows all normal targetting rules as normal, as it does not say it ignores any of them.
creme_brule
Posted: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:28:58 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

"treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets" sounds to me like it overrides normal targeting rules. This was asked in the FAQ thread at gamers but no definitive answer was given.


The thing is, it doesn't say that it ignores cover or adjacency. When things are ignored, it tends to state it. Much like other abilities, ALL the rules must be obeyed.

So, Telekinetic Combat follows all normal targetting rules as normal, as it does not say it ignores any of them.


i.e: she doeshave to attack adjacent enemies if they are adjacent....which does make sense logically, since it would be weird if she was slicing at troopers a few meters away and some jedi was slashing at her in the meantime lol.
Jester007
Posted: Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:51:57 AM
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Just curious, does anyone know where there's glossary source for R&R that gives the expanded definitions?

Sincerely,
Jester007
Dimetrodon
Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:16:52 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

"treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets" sounds to me like it overrides normal targeting rules. This was asked in the FAQ thread at gamers but no definitive answer was given.


The thing is, it doesn't say that it ignores cover or adjacency. When things are ignored, it tends to state it. Much like other abilities, ALL the rules must be obeyed.

So, Telekinetic Combat follows all normal targetting rules as normal, as it does not say it ignores any of them.


What if cover is not a factor?

xe
xx
xx
eT

e = enemy, T = Traya, and x = empty square. if there is no cover going on and everyone there is a legal target, she can then pick either of those in the diagram? if there was cover or another character in the way of the Top e I would figure that alters the selection of course.

The way it sounds to me, is everyone within 6 squares CAN be a legal target assuming there is no interference with cover, other characters, or walls of course.

Sithborg
Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2011 9:53:37 AM
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If there is a character adjacent, non adjacent figures cannot be legal targets. Cover and adjacency apply as normal.
Dimetrodon
Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:51:45 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
If there is a character adjacent, non adjacent figures cannot be legal targets. Cover and adjacency apply as normal.


Telekinetic Combat
When making an attack on its own turn, this character treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets. Even if this character can only attack adjacent enemies (due to abilities such as Melee Attack), this character can attack nonadjacent enemies who are within 6 squares. Any attack made against a nonadjacent target will count as a non melee attack for abilities such as Evade or Lightsaber Deflect. Nonmelee attacks ignore abilities that Lightsaber Throw ignores, such as Damage Reduction or Dark Armor.

The bolded text would imply that they still CAN be legal target of attacks anyway. But if not.. then why exactly is the bolded part there, if it has nothing to do with anything in the long run except to cause confusion? The rest of the ability describes exactly how it works, so what is the point of telling us characters are legal targets, if they are infact not actually legal most of the time.

I understand how the ability works as the designers intend, but it just seems to have an extra piece of text that doesn't really need to be there at all.
Jester007
Posted: Sunday, September 18, 2011 11:35:22 AM
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Dimetrodon wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
If there is a character adjacent, non adjacent figures cannot be legal targets. Cover and adjacency apply as normal.


Telekinetic Combat
When making an attack on its own turn, this character treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets. Even if this character can only attack adjacent enemies (due to abilities such as Melee Attack), this character can attack nonadjacent enemies who are within 6 squares. Any attack made against a nonadjacent target will count as a non melee attack for abilities such as Evade or Lightsaber Deflect. Nonmelee attacks ignore abilities that Lightsaber Throw ignores, such as Damage Reduction or Dark Armor.

The bolded text would imply that they still CAN be legal target of attacks anyway. But if not.. then why exactly is the bolded part there, if it has nothing to do with anything in the long run except to cause confusion? The rest of the ability describes exactly how it works, so what is the point of telling us characters are legal targets, if they are infact not actually legal most of the time.

I understand how the ability works as the designers intend, but it just seems to have an extra piece of text that doesn't really need to be there at all.


The part that mentions the character w/ TC being able to attack non-adjacent enemies (even if this character can only attack non-adjacent enemies) does not get around targetting rules. In the basic rule book, it states that if a character is based by an enemy, that character cannot target any other enemies that aren't adjacent.

Let's look at LS Throw 3/5. That power allows a character to be able to target any enemy within LOS. But if there is an enemy adjacent to the character using LS Throw, then you cannot target anyone but the adjacent enemy. Even though the power basically states you can target anyone within LOS, it still does not get around certain targetting restrictions (adjacency being one of them).

Think of using TC against non-adjacent targets as kind of LS Throw but without it being a power. The second sentence is there to let everyone know that even though Traya has Melee attack, she can still attack someone 6 squares away. Otherwise, you would have to create a SA to allow her to make ranged attacks that would replace her normal attacks (I would like to reference GGDAC's Blaster 20).

Sincerely,
Jester007
Dimetrodon
Posted: Monday, September 19, 2011 12:55:11 PM
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Jester007 wrote:
Dimetrodon wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
If there is a character adjacent, non adjacent figures cannot be legal targets. Cover and adjacency apply as normal.


Telekinetic Combat
When making an attack on its own turn, this character treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets. Even if this character can only attack adjacent enemies (due to abilities such as Melee Attack), this character can attack nonadjacent enemies who are within 6 squares. Any attack made against a nonadjacent target will count as a non melee attack for abilities such as Evade or Lightsaber Deflect. Nonmelee attacks ignore abilities that Lightsaber Throw ignores, such as Damage Reduction or Dark Armor.

The bolded text would imply that they still CAN be legal target of attacks anyway. But if not.. then why exactly is the bolded part there, if it has nothing to do with anything in the long run except to cause confusion? The rest of the ability describes exactly how it works, so what is the point of telling us characters are legal targets, if they are infact not actually legal most of the time.

I understand how the ability works as the designers intend, but it just seems to have an extra piece of text that doesn't really need to be there at all.


The part that mentions the character w/ TC being able to attack non-adjacent enemies (even if this character can only attack non-adjacent enemies) does not get around targetting rules. In the basic rule book, it states that if a character is based by an enemy, that character cannot target any other enemies that aren't adjacent.

Let's look at LS Throw 3/5. That power allows a character to be able to target any enemy within LOS. But if there is an enemy adjacent to the character using LS Throw, then you cannot target anyone but the adjacent enemy. Even though the power basically states you can target anyone within LOS, it still does not get around certain targetting restrictions (adjacency being one of them).

Think of using TC against non-adjacent targets as kind of LS Throw but without it being a power. The second sentence is there to let everyone know that even though Traya has Melee attack, she can still attack someone 6 squares away. Otherwise, you would have to create a SA to allow her to make ranged attacks that would replace her normal attacks (I would like to reference GGDAC's Blaster 20).

Sincerely,
Jester007


I understand the ability, I just don't see why the particular text this character treats all enemy characters within 6 squares as legal targets is needed. It comes off as misleading to a degree. thats all.

Edit: it actually could have been slimmed down and written like Melee Reach, but with the added bit about not counting as melee.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:48:54 PM
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I understand how Telekinetic Combat is interpreted: the acting character can make non-melee attacks against characters within 6 squares, subject to normal targeting rules. (Or normal melee attacks against adjacent enemies.) I agree that it should work that way.

However, I agree with Dimetrodon. The glossary doesn't match what the interpretation is. (The card's wording matches the interpretation, though, so it's only confusing if you look into the glossary.)

The glossary for Telekinetic Combat says that enemies within 6 are treated as legal targets. Step I of Resolving Effects is "declare all legal targets" and step II is to "declare a target" out of the legal targets. The glossary definition of "legal target" contains the targeting rules, so if a special ability declares something to be in the "legal target" category it effectively sidesteps the normal targeting rules and is added to the list of legal targets (used in Step I).

This is different from the wording on the glossary definition of Accurate Shot, which does not mention "legal target". Accurate Shot says a shooter "can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy", but it does not affect the other parts of the definition of legal target (i.e. adjacent characters first).

I understand the argument that you have to follow the targeting rules unless otherwise stated, but the targeting rules are used to determine what the "legal targets" are. So saying something is a legal target is saying you skip over the targeting rules. If you still have to follow targeting rules anyway, it should say "can attack" or "may target" or "might be a legal target".

In any case, the answer to this question should be added to the FAQ.

===

(As far as I can tell, there is no other glossary entry or ability that flatly states something is a "legal target". Accurate Shot, Sniper, LS Throw 3/5, etc. all get around specific named parts of the targeting rules such as ignoring cover. They do not directly put characters in the "legal target" category.)
Dimetrodon
Posted: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:53:17 PM
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The FlyingArrow hit the bullseye


adidamps2
Posted: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:23:07 AM
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I'm in agreeance with Flying Arrow...
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:15:00 AM
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Every other ability that allows you ignore any part of the targetting rules specifically says so. Telekinetic Combat doesn't. All rules must be obeyed. If it did not target, then it would be a seperate story.
It was likely overlooked due to other interactions they wanted to focus on. And it still works as intended.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 11:48:11 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
Every other ability that allows you ignore any part of the targetting rules specifically says so. Telekinetic Combat doesn't. All rules must be obeyed.


Special abilities and Force powers ignore/alter rules all the time.

Saying a character is treated "as a legal target" says to follow the targeting rules and then also add that character to the "legal targets" list (if they weren't there already). It's the same wording as for Light Spirit but in reverse: "not a legal target". If attacking and there is a character with Light Spirit nearby without cover, you follow normal targeting rules and the Light Spirit character would in the "legal targets" list. Then based on Light Spirit's definition, that character is removed from the "legal targets" category.

I agree - I think it was likely overlooked. It should have said "can attack" instead of treating an enemy within 6 as a "legal target". Or, as Dimetrodon indicated, the sentence could have been omitted entirely. It works as intended based on the ruling, and I think the ruling is a good ruling. The ruling just doesn't match the glossary text. I guess sometimes judicial activism is a good thing. :-)
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