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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 8/7/2008 Posts: 400
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This concept came up in a squadbuilding discussion thread, where someone suggested playing Joruus, Sly Moore, and a Rodian Trader together for "infinite damage" (in a theoretical sense).
The way it would work is:
1) Joruus gets grenades.
2) Sly Moore activates Joruus through dominate.
3) At the end of Joruus's turn, he gives Sly another activation (through his commander effect).
4) Repeats steps 2 and 3 as needed.
Since each activation of Sly is "nested" within the previous one, Sly's turns never really ends, so the "is defeated" part of Joruus's commander effected is not resolved.
I questioned the validity of it, since I'm assuming (perhaops incorrectly) that Dominate can't stack, so a character couldn't be affected by it more than once per turn, and since this all occurs on Sly's turn...
Thoughts? Rulings? What changes if it's the Bomarr Monk instead of Sly? How about if Joruus uses Force Dominate rather than is commander effect? I'm sure there are other variations I'm blanking on...
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2010 Posts: 1,029
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That is an interesting scenario, probably not the most effective, and a failed save will eventually break the chain., but I see no reason mechanically that it wouldn't work as each time creates a new turn, even though it's within another turn.
Basically it ends up being just like the "never-ending" cycle of djem so attacks - the "only way out" is a failed save.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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I think the stacking arguement will come up when, even though it's a different turn, a figure that hasn't fully resolved their Dominate turn is still benefitting from Dominate, thus stacking comes into play. The same would apply to Joruus's CE, a figure still under the turn granted by the CE, couldn't benefit from the CE again until that turn is fully resolved.
Neat idea, not something I would think of as abusive, but I just don't think it can stand up with the precedents on stacking. If the turn could fully resolve, than perhaps.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 8/7/2008 Posts: 400
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So in your estimation, the "infinte loop" could not occur due to stacking?
1) Sly Moore, on her turn, activates Joruus via Dominate. Her turn is not over.
2) Joruus takes his turn (nested within Sly's turn). If he activates Sly Moore via commander effect at the end of his turn.
3) Sly Moore goes again, althought it is STILL her original turn:
Sly Moore --->Joruus ------->Sly Moore
Since Joruus has already been affected by Dominate on this turn (technically, Sly's initial, still-unresolved turn), it cannot be used on him again.
Yes?
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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Correct.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2010 Posts: 1,029
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Sithborg wrote:I think the stacking arguement will come up when, even though it's a different turn, a figure that hasn't fully resolved their Dominate turn is still benefitting from Dominate, thus stacking comes into play. The same would apply to Joruus's CE, a figure still under the turn granted by the CE, couldn't benefit from the CE again until that turn is fully resolved.
Neat idea, not something I would think of as abusive, but I just don't think it can stand up with the precedents on stacking. If the turn could fully resolve, than perhaps. I personally don't see it that way as Dominate and Joruus' CE Each state the target takes a turn, which while nested within the initial turn is still a seperate turn in and of itself. To illustrate how much of a new turn that is consider abilities that last until a characters next turn are deactivated when a character is dominated (which means this would actually be a very useful tactic when facing Bastilla), therefore the turn is an entirely seperate entity from any previous turn, it's just that it's position in the round has been altered from the norm.
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Rank: Dark Trooper Phase III Groups: Member
Joined: 10/11/2010 Posts: 25
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The real issue at stake here is whether or not it can be 2 characters' turns simultaneously. My understanding is that dominate creates an interruption in the dominating characters turn so that it ceases to be his turn until the dominated character has completed his granted turn. Otherwise you would not be able to force reroll a dominate save and then spend force normally on the turn granted by dominate. It is only one characters turn at any given time. That has been the consistant ruling to my understanding.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2010 Posts: 1,029
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That's a much better way of explaining it!
Afterall If you have Sly and a B'omarr Monk in the squad, Sly can dominate someone and the next activation the B'omarr can dominate that same character because they are 2 different turns - dominate/Joruus' CE creates a BRAND NEW turn for the targetted character so the way I see it stacking doesn't apply in this regard.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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The timing though is what is at play, though. Yes, a new turn is there. But, the old Dominate turn HAS NOT FULLY RESOLVED yet. Thus, you would still be considered to be benefitting from Dominate, and thus a second Dominate would fall under stacking. It is a new turn, but the interrupted turn is not ignored. The game state, as it where, still has a figure benefitting from Dominate. You cannot benefit from Dominate more than once at a time, which is why you can't Riposte more than once.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2010 Posts: 1,029
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Valid reasoning, however, I must say that at the end of Joruus's turn he is no longer benefitting from Dominate (as his dominated turn ended) therefore he is susceptible to another dominate during the CE-induced turn of Sly Moore. Just because the original turn hasn't fully concluded doesn't necessarily mean the benefits gained from that characters turn are still active.
As an example of abilities being concluded at anytime during a turn I offer: If Joruus Force Dominates Xizor who attacks (which is reflected/Riposted/djem so/counterattack - depending on which Xizor - defeating the prince), Joruus cannot then use his CE to again activate Xizor (as he is defeated), nor if he used it on an Aqualish Assassin could they benefit from Xizor-induced black sun Grenades (as the loss of Xizor invalidates that ability).
In that regard Force Dominate or multiple uses of Dominate would not work for stacking purposes, however since Joruus' CE takes place after his turn concludes that reasoning doesn't apply.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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Except we do have the precedents that "at the end of this character's turn" actions are still part of that characters turn.
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Rank: Dark Trooper Phase III Groups: Member
Joined: 10/11/2010 Posts: 25
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The interesting question to ask is what does it mean CE's dont stack with themselves. Does that even apply to abilities that grant extra turns? The other point is that this CE has a SPECIFIC point of application. At the end of Joruus's turn couldn't the argument be made that when the NEW instance of the CE is applied to Sly, that it overwrites the OLD instance since CE's cannot stack with themselves? Hence Sly would only ever have 1 defeat waiting for him at the end of his turn. I can see both sides of the argument here.
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