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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/23/2008 Posts: 907 Location: Central Pa
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We are in the middle of another regional season and naturally the topic of slowplay is beginning to be discussed more frequently. I thought that I'd offer my thoughts on the subject as I have battled slowplay issues myself in my game and play in a part of the country where it is perhaps a bit more prevalent than in others.
I see the main problem being that the game wasn't created with tournament play in mind. Speaking personally, my greatest enjoyment in playing this game is when I can play it without time constraints and a 'kill em all' style rather than gambit as a source of points. We talk about our squads, perhaps about the movies or books, and the game proceeds at a leisurely pace. The game ends when you destroy your opponent's squad or he gives up.
Putting the game into a tournament setting creates problems. If you have a tournament you have time constraints. Gambit was created to encourage engagement, but doesn't solve everything. Oftentimes novices are not prepared for a brisker pace against more serious opponents who are understandably more strict about rules violations.
I think there needs to be a distinction made between slowplay and stalling. The primary difference here is intent; typically a slowplayer is usually a novice, or someone who does not often play outside his own group or locale. He is nervous about playing a veteran player and doesn't want to look stupid and make foolish plays or mistakes. He ends up playing more deliberately and the game slows to a crawl as indecision sets in. Nickname, on a podcast some time ago put it best. I don't remember the exact wording but the gist of his statement was that in a tournament setting we don't have time to always make the best move. As players we all need to learn to make the best move we can in a finite amount of time. Certainly there will be points in every game where we labor over decisions. For the most part, however, we should be planning our moves ahead and part of the thought process and decision making is done on your opponent's turn.
Stalling is cheating. No two ways about it, a person who stalls is looking to win a game through the expiration of time rather than by outplaying his opponent. Outlasting your opponent is a viable strategy in Survivor, but in Star Wars Miniatures it is cheating. We all know the myriad of ways this can be done so I won't get into that.
The problem is that slowplay and stalling oftentimes lead to the same result. A game that lasts 2 or 3 rounds over the course of an hour is not a true test of strategy or strength of squad. It takes many tools away from the players and relegates them to a lucky roll here or there. Whether that 2 or 3 round game happened as a result of a novice becoming flustered or a less scrupulous person looking to beat someone he doesn't have the skillset to beat still hurts the player on the other side of the table who is trying to do things the right way. That person needs to be satisfied.
This is where it gets tricky for the judge, especially in this time when we no longer have a company producing the game. Today I believe it is not enough for a judge to have a thorough understanding of the rules. I believe those of us who judge major events need to possess people skills and try to find that difficult middle ground where all parties are at least satisfied that they were treated fairly. This may involve some gentle education for the novice or asking for a little grace from the veteran, or both. In the end though, the integrity of the game must be upheld and the rules adhered to. It is my opinion though, that judges can and should work harder to keep people happy if at all possible. We can't drive the new people away from the game through harsh treatment at an event, or the veteran players who already do things right when we encourage slowplay by not addressing it.
Finally, I'd like to encourage those of you out there who are considered leaders in your group to get your players to practice on speeding up their play as a regional or GenCon approaches. Time your practice sessions and push them. In the end, they'll be better players for it. Look for ways you can set the example yourself. A few tournaments ago someone complained about an aspect of my game they thought slowed it down. At the time I thought their comments were driven more out of frustration over losing, but as I examined my habits I realized he was probably more right than just frustrated and I made efforts speed things up. I think we need to examine our own games as leaders so we can set the example, then go about speeding up your group.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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I think the 3/2 system helps. The drop of activations also helps.
I do have to laugh, in one of my games at the MI Regional, my opponent was quite impressed with how many rounds we got in in the last 10 minutes. It was at least 5, in addition to the fair amount we had already gotten in.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/23/2009 Posts: 1,195
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I can honestly say I've never had a problem with slow play. If someone is going slow I generally say something like "hurry up" or "dude, you can stare at my body later, just move something" that usually gets across that they need to speed up. If not a quick handraise for the judge solves it.
3/2 scoring makes it very important to me that I finish games on time. That way at a tourney I can afford to lose 1 game and still make top 4. If your playing slow then your probably screwing me out of the finals, and I won't stand for that seeing as I have to drive minimum 4 hours round trip to even get to play minis live.
Pretty much if your not going to call someone out on slow play or stalling then its on you. If you don't say "hey this dude is greging" (our term for slowplay) then dont complain about it later. You can't call pass interference on monday.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008 Posts: 4,729 Location: Chicago
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Darth_Jim wrote: I see the main problem being that the game wasn't created with tournament play in mind. Speaking personally, my greatest enjoyment in playing this game is when I can play it without time constraints and a 'kill em all' style rather than gambit as a source of points. We talk about our squads, perhaps about the movies or books, and the game proceeds at a leisurely pace. The game ends when you destroy your opponent's squad or he gives up. .
Amen! It is SO much more fun this way. But - I like tournaments, so gotta play differently. I think a lot of what Jim said is great. I would like to add a few things though. I have had many games lately where the other player is playing slow. Not because they were novices, and not because they were stalling. It was because I put them in a bad position and there was no good move. I could see them cycling through all possibilities in their mind on how to proceed, and coming up with death for themselves each time. I am not saying this is a valid reason for playing slower, but it does happen. It is not just the novices. In fact - I often see it more in experienced players. They tend to see the folly in bad moves, and are searching for better ones. Novices just go ahead and move, then see why it was bad afterward. Also - 2 pt wins happen. That's OK. I have had virtually all 3 pt wins this year, (actually I think I HAVE had all 3 point wins this year, not counting the sole loss). But that's not to say in certain match-ups a 2 point win wouldn't happen. The key is you have to be working towards victory conditions. This does include Gambit. If you have your rock melee squad in gambit, it is the other person's responsibility to engage you. You are allowed to sit in gambit all day and force them to come to you - you do not have to chase them down into the far corner of the map. If you are in gambit and your opponent is not, and they refuse to engage, call over a judge. If you are both not in gambit - you'll likely both get a warning. If you are both in gambit (but on other siders of a wall like on the destroyed bunker map), then it's a judges call. In MO regional I out-activated everyone, but still played quicker. It should go quick to move a bunch of scrubs. It also should be noted that some moves are inherently going to take much longer. For example - it's not fair to just see how long someone takes for a single activation - the judge needs to see how a full round unfolds. When I played the lancer people would take forever moving their 10 figures desperately trying to find places to hide. During that time I would instantly spin my pieces. Then at the end I would have to count out 72 spaces for the lancer's path (24 + 24 from the Pawn + 24 start of the next round with the MTB) in multiple ways, and they would complain it took too long - not even realizing how long they took before in the round. It always seems like the other person is taking longer than you. You're just sitting waiting while they are thinking. Also - some squads match-ups just inherently take longer. You have to know that when you build a squad. You have to know how to deal with that. It wasn't uncommon when I played the lancer to have only 3 rounds in in the first 30 minutes, but end the game in 45. Slower going in the beginning, but then it's lightning fast. Bottom line - You have to try and finish in an hour. Build with that in mind. Play with that in mind. Darth_Jim wrote:a person who stalls is looking to win a game through the expiration of time rather than by outplaying his opponent. This is key - outplaying your opponent. I think it is possible to outplay your opponent and get a 2 pt victory. In some cases, you can even accept the 2 pt victory (keep in mind if no action happens after 5 rounds the games ends regardless). If you are in Gambit, your opponent is not and it's the better move for you to just take the 2 pt win - you can, and it is legal. With super high defense and soresu style mastery stupidness back in play, games could literally go forever. You have outplayed your opponent if they cannot engage (or are too scared to engage), you are in gambit and ahead on points. Press the advance to get a 3pt at the risk of losing, or take the sure 2pt win. Your call there. Both are legal. How does a Lancer beat Nom Bombs? By playing carefully and cagey - taking only what they give you, and it will likely be a 2 pt win. Obviously try and get the 3 point win, but in certain match-ups it is less likely to happen. Also - I would encourage judges to not be shy about a warning. Go ahead and give it, in fact give a double warning if they are both not playing fast enough. Then you can erase it (yes you have a right as the judge to erase it) if the game finishes in under an hour. If you think about it - it makes sense: The goal is to finish under an hour. It appeared at first that was not going to happen. But it did happen, so it negates the warning. I was never so mystified as when I got a warning 2 years ago for slow play in a game I finished. I won the game in 5 rounds, and the judge said we should have got more rounds in sooner. WHAT!?! I FINISHED the game, it doesn't matter that the first 3 rounds took 30 minutes. In my opinion - I think the warning should have been erased. I have no problem with a judge saying - if this game doesn't finish, you will receive a slow play warning. If that doesn't speed things up, I don't know what will.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 10/17/2010 Posts: 3,682 Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
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we have considered using timers for our SWM matches.I think 60 seconds to move 1 piece is more than enough. it kills me to watch my opponent find LOS for every one of their pieces,check out my cards, count squares, check out his cards,and then give me the initiative.
I think some kind of timer system would solve the perpetual problem.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
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With our group's slowest player, one problem he has is that he just doesn't know his cards that well, and has to check them out each time he makes a move. While I know if I'm playing Ganner, my main options are either to Levitate someone, Force Push someone, Lightsaber Sweep, or just make a normal attack; it makes it much faster if you have a finite list of options in your head and can just pick one.
There was a SHNN on this last year, I think; one thing I remember them saying is that there can be a move or two where you can take a little while to figure stuff out, but most of the time you should be able to make your moves really quickly.
I have major issues playing against the Lancer; it takes me ages to work out the positioning of all my pieces against it; I just haven't played against it often enough.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 8,428
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jak wrote:we have considered using timers for our SWM matches.I think 60 seconds to move 1 piece is more than enough. it kills me to watch my opponent find LOS for every one of their pieces,check out my cards, count squares, check out his cards,and then give me the initiative.
I think some kind of timer system would solve the perpetual problem. If it's a 60-minute match, a chess timer should work fine. If one person uses a full 30-minutes of their time, they automatically lose.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 1/5/2009 Posts: 2,240 Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
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FlyingArrow wrote:jak wrote:we have considered using timers for our SWM matches.I think 60 seconds to move 1 piece is more than enough. it kills me to watch my opponent find LOS for every one of their pieces,check out my cards, count squares, check out his cards,and then give me the initiative.
I think some kind of timer system would solve the perpetual problem. If it's a 60-minute match, a chess timer should work fine. If one person uses a full 30-minutes of their time, they automatically lose. Just for fun I got two 30 second sand timers. If your opponent did not move in that time you got to activate one of his characters, and it couldn't move, but it could do anything else. Jak and I played a game like this. 30 seconds is alot of time.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010 Posts: 564
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juice man wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:jak wrote:we have considered using timers for our SWM matches.I think 60 seconds to move 1 piece is more than enough. it kills me to watch my opponent find LOS for every one of their pieces,check out my cards, count squares, check out his cards,and then give me the initiative.
I think some kind of timer system would solve the perpetual problem. If it's a 60-minute match, a chess timer should work fine. If one person uses a full 30-minutes of their time, they automatically lose. Just for fun I got two 30 second sand timers. If your opponent did not move in that time you got to activate one of his characters, and it couldn't move, but it could do anything else. Jak and I played a game like this. 30 seconds is alot of time. That's actually a really cool idea. I like it a lot.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 9/30/2008 Posts: 1,288
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TheHutts wrote:There was a SHNN on this last year, I think; one thing I remember them saying is that there can be a move or two where you can take a little while to figure stuff out, but most of the time you should be able to make your moves really quickly. Yeah, this is important to remember. It's fine if during a game you spend a while (a few minutes, tops) figuring out a single really big turn or phase. Many games hinge on a single big turn (especially with something like Lancers to worry about), so you can spend a little extra time figuring those turns out. You have to make up for this, though, by doing your other turns very quickly. An average game that doesn't get completed in an hour should still last at least 6 rounds; that's an average of 10 minutes per round. That's a lot of time! And that means that if you finish most of the round in 2 minutes, you can spend a couple minutes on one or two activations that round. Don't push it to 10 minutes just because you can, of course, but if you did everything else fast you can focus on the important move a little longer. Just don't do this more than a 2 or maybe 3 times per game, and you still need to keep it to a reasonable amount of time. The other key I think is what Jim mentioned: You must play as fast as needed to complete the game in time. If that's too fast for you to really think through and make the ideal move, well, then you're just going to have to make a less ideal move
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