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Pre-Vset Sith Hypothetical question Options
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:17:15 AM
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Would the Sith faction have been tier 1 if they're pieces were all recosted at 15-20 points cheaper?

I feel like they had some great pieces, that were not at all worth their cost. How low would they have had to go to stand a chance? Or did they truly lack the mechanics needed to stand against tier one if properly priced?
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:23:55 AM
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I was starting to have some sucess with Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow.

And it really depends on what pieces you are talking about. Exar and Bane were costed pretty accurately, and did quite well in different point formats. Some figures wouldn't be able to do well unless they were severly undercosted.
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:30:08 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
I was starting to have some sucess with Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow.

And it really depends on what pieces you are talking about. Exar and Bane were costed pretty accurately, and did quite well in different point formats. Some figures wouldn't be able to do well unless they were severly undercosted.


I remember that, actually, using the double SS to compensate for low activations. Do you think an extra 20-40 free points would have brought that squad up to tier 1?

I know bane + uggies did hold the 100 point game at the time of CoTF, but, his time has long since passed. I feel like some pieces are really great, but will never get played because they're far to pricy... Krayt, Caedus, and Sion are all coming to mind.
Uggie Demo
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:37:27 AM
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Ulic Qel is another one that I can think of. I think he is costed pretty accurately, however he's not that useful.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 11:56:20 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I was starting to have some sucess with Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow.

And it really depends on what pieces you are talking about. Exar and Bane were costed pretty accurately, and did quite well in different point formats. Some figures wouldn't be able to do well unless they were severly undercosted.


I remember that, actually, using the double SS to compensate for low activations. Do you think an extra 20-40 free points would have brought that squad up to tier 1?

I know bane + uggies did hold the 100 point game at the time of CoTF, but, his time has long since passed. I feel like some pieces are really great, but will never get played because they're far to pricy... Krayt, Caedus, and Sion are all coming to mind.


Cheaper is always better. But, what would've happened with Bane in 100 if he was cheaper? Sure, he probably could've done better in the higher point levels, but 100 would've been left devastated. Sure, there are some overcosted figures, but I wouldn't call it the whole faction. Quite a few figures were costed high because they had stuff that was new and potentially unbalancing. Taking a turn before anyone else, no matter initiative? Essentially having 330 HP? Yeah, they were going to cost a lot to be safe. Within their sets, I don't see much of an issue of the Sith's cost. Sometimes things don't work out as anticipated.
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 12:41:04 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I was starting to have some sucess with Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow.

And it really depends on what pieces you are talking about. Exar and Bane were costed pretty accurately, and did quite well in different point formats. Some figures wouldn't be able to do well unless they were severly undercosted.


I remember that, actually, using the double SS to compensate for low activations. Do you think an extra 20-40 free points would have brought that squad up to tier 1?

I know bane + uggies did hold the 100 point game at the time of CoTF, but, his time has long since passed. I feel like some pieces are really great, but will never get played because they're far to pricy... Krayt, Caedus, and Sion are all coming to mind.


Cheaper is always better. But, what would've happened with Bane in 100 if he was cheaper? Sure, he probably could've done better in the higher point levels, but 100 would've been left devastated. Sure, there are some overcosted figures, but I wouldn't call it the whole faction. Quite a few figures were costed high because they had stuff that was new and potentially unbalancing. Taking a turn before anyone else, no matter initiative? Essentially having 330 HP? Yeah, they were going to cost a lot to be safe. Within their sets, I don't see much of an issue of the Sith's cost. Sometimes things don't work out as anticipated.


Well, here is where I think it fails. Bane, for his time, was truly one of the greatest pieces. Even by todays standards, he is great... but he's not that great for his current cost. The game evolved, and his faction did not. What happened is that a piece like bane became fish food for a shooter dominated game. His super high defense and lack of access to any further ranged defense outside of bodyguard meant that he fell out of meta as pieces like the IG-86's were released. If you lowered his cost there, as you said ,that would be devastating, If you lowered his cost now, I think he'd would simply have a chance to see competitive play again (maybe). While caedus's ability was unheard of at the time, i never saw a squad with him that managed really fight a good fight... his faction was already hurting for aid by that time, and his high balancing cost really just made him as unplayable as the rest of the faction. That may have been fixed some with v-set 3, i don't know as I don't get to hear many game reports these days.

I think the high costs were done in preparation for the future. The pieces would theoretically only get better as newer pieces were released that synergized with them. I think the V-sets have seriously helped this game out, but even after all they have done for the sith faction, pieces like Sion are still not worth running. Access to force renewal helped him, but for as much as he costs, theres just such better options for a fraction of the cost, that require far less squad devotion to get them to where they need to be to leave a dent.

I think the same can be said about GML. He's great, clearly there are new pieces that help justify his cost more... but will he ever have enough help to be worth playing? I once asked if the game has an new rule that said you could mix and max any faction, would GML become tier one (pre-vset question). The answer was, pretty much across the board, "no". When you inflate the price of a unit based on unknown future mechanics, and then provide the "aggressively priced" pieces access to the same powers, well... you end up collecting dust with scion, revan, nihl, nihilus, caedus, krayt.

I wonder if a piece that had report for some of the older pieces would let them come back. I don't know... seems like even with all the attempts at synergy that we see in the v-sets (Jango, Mandalore), its just not enough to give the old dogs a shot at prime time.
kezzamachine
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 3:27:03 PM
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An interesting side-arguement is that a character may be costed relatively accurately for their effect as an individual character, but that is a different kettle of fish when it comes to a skirmish game. GMLS, for example, is a freakin' tank and in a one-on-one scenario he is a monster - and rightly so because the character he is based off is a nightmare for his opponents. In a story sense, he is sooo good, he can afford to often relax and quip against his opponents. He is that good. But in a 200-pt skirmish, he's next to useless for a gazillion reasons.

I'm reading the SWM {CE} rules again (looking at how I can implement it into our stuff - shame it stops at MotF!!! because it is awesome!) and GMLS would be great in that setup because he is a character, not a skirmish-tested piece.

So, does that mean there is no place for more story/scenario-friendly characters in the SWM game? I don't think so, but what does that look like? Heaps of folk want to see a Chief Chirpa and certainly not because they think he'll be the next Tier 1 piece!
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 4:09:13 PM
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kezzamachine wrote:
An interesting side-arguement is that a character may be costed relatively accurately for their effect as an individual character, but that is a different kettle of fish when it comes to a skirmish game. GMLS, for example, is a freakin' tank and in a one-on-one scenario he is a monster - and rightly so because the character he is based off is a nightmare for his opponents. In a story sense, he is sooo good, he can afford to often relax and quip against his opponents. He is that good. But in a 200-pt skirmish, he's next to useless for a gazillion reasons.

I'm reading the SWM {CE} rules again (looking at how I can implement it into our stuff - shame it stops at MotF!!! because it is awesome!) and GMLS would be great in that setup because he is a character, not a skirmish-tested piece.

So, does that mean there is no place for more story/scenario-friendly characters in the SWM game? I don't think so, but what does that look like? Heaps of folk want to see a Chief Chirpa and certainly not because they think he'll be the next Tier 1 piece!

Oh, I've been asking for more ewoks since vset 1.

But that is a good point. A shame that a piece as iconic as gmls doesn't really stand a chance in the skirmish game. I think a great flaw of this game was that there was no character engine. It was very much built on "gut feelings". I think the vset is too, but they seem to play test much more throughly
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 4:12:18 PM
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adamb0nd wrote:

But that is a good point. A shame that a piece as iconic as gmls doesn't really stand a chance in the skirmish game. I think a great flaw of this game was that there was no character engine. It was very much built on "gut feelings". I think the vset is too, but they seem to play test much more throughly


Did you read what Weeks posted the other day?

Weeks wrote:
Soon, not now but soon. GMLS will be a very interesting option.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 4:26:11 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:

But that is a good point. A shame that a piece as iconic as gmls doesn't really stand a chance in the skirmish game. I think a great flaw of this game was that there was no character engine. It was very much built on "gut feelings". I think the vset is too, but they seem to play test much more throughly


Did you read what Weeks posted the other day?

Weeks wrote:
Soon, not now but soon. GMLS will be a very interesting option.


I missed that, but I think he could definitely be boosted/synergized to become a viable option.
kezzamachine
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 7:29:47 PM
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Well, that rules!

And I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that pieces that are more scenario-based have a limited functionality in the tier-1 skirmish game. There will always be options and some of those will be excellent and some of those bad. I think a huge percentage of the time those gut feelings pan out really well. If you want a character engine, SWM {CE} is great for that!
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:30:24 PM
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kezzamachine wrote:
Well, that rules!

And I'm not so sure it's a bad thing that pieces that are more scenario-based have a limited functionality in the tier-1 skirmish game. There will always be options and some of those will be excellent and some of those bad. I think a huge percentage of the time those gut feelings pan out really well. If you want a character engine, SWM {CE} is great for that!


Clearly GMLS shouldn't be be as powerful in SWM as he is in the books... either he would cost to much to ever play or he would be completely broken... but for such an iconic character, I wish he was at least feasible to use (which, it sounds like he may be pretty soon).
CerousMutor
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 1:28:07 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
kezzamachine wrote:
An interesting side-arguement is that a character may be costed relatively accurately for their effect as an individual character, but that is a different kettle of fish when it comes to a skirmish game. GMLS, for example, is a freakin' tank and in a one-on-one scenario he is a monster - and rightly so because the character he is based off is a nightmare for his opponents. In a story sense, he is sooo good, he can afford to often relax and quip against his opponents. He is that good. But in a 200-pt skirmish, he's next to useless for a gazillion reasons.

I'm reading the SWM {CE} rules again (looking at how I can implement it into our stuff - shame it stops at MotF!!! because it is awesome!) and GMLS would be great in that setup because he is a character, not a skirmish-tested piece.

So, does that mean there is no place for more story/scenario-friendly characters in the SWM game? I don't think so, but what does that look like? Heaps of folk want to see a Chief Chirpa and certainly not because they think he'll be the next Tier 1 piece!

Oh, I've been asking for more ewoks since vset 1.

But that is a good point. A shame that a piece as iconic as gmls doesn't really stand a chance in the skirmish game. I think a great flaw of this game was that there was no character engine. It was very much built on "gut feelings". I think the vset is too, but they seem to play test much more throughly


So true. I think the first thing I learnt was SWminis and Starwars were two different things.
CerousMutor
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 1:30:22 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:

But that is a good point. A shame that a piece as iconic as gmls doesn't really stand a chance in the skirmish game. I think a great flaw of this game was that there was no character engine. It was very much built on "gut feelings". I think the vset is too, but they seem to play test much more throughly


Did you read what Weeks posted the other day?

Weeks wrote:
Soon, not now but soon. GMLS will be a very interesting option.


hmmm will it be a broad band synergy for Jedi? He is the Grand master after all. Or will it be a Ben/Mara kinda deal.
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