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Master speed and MotF2 or 3 Options
Jedi_Master
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:47:22 AM
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I know the normal ruling for this but I was wondering if there was some reason for why you can not spend force twice for master speed when you have MotF2. I remember something about not being able to be effected twice by the same ability but then I found this in the glossary:

Q: If a character has an ability that allows it to spend Force points more than once per turn, can it do so to move faster or reroll multiple times? For example, could Mara Jade spend 1 of her own Force points and 1 of Emperor Palpatine's Force points to move 4 extra squares on her turn?

A: Yes. If a character can spend Force points more than once per turn, it may spend those points on multiple instances of the same effect. A character could spend 2 Force points to move 4 extra squares on its turn, reroll two attack rolls, and so forth. However, some Force powers replace attacks and cannot be used more than once per turn, even if a character can spend Force points more than once per turn.

Bold added by me. So, wouldn't this mean you could use the same power twice, as MotF2 lets you be effected by multiple instances of the same effect?
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:50:20 AM
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Master Speed is named Force Power, thus falls under the stacking rules. The generic "move faster" and "reroll" are not, thus are allowed to stack.
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:54:05 AM
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It's not showing the bold... anyways, you can move faster 2 times because it doesn't replace anything. With force powers that replace attacks and your turn, the turn/attacks can only get used once, so you'd need Captain Tarpals to allow you to spend the attacks twice.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:59:11 AM
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MaliciousCrumb wrote:
It's not showing the bold... anyways, you can move faster 2 times because it doesn't replace anything. With force powers that replace attacks and your turn, the turn/attacks can only get used once, so you'd need Captain Tarpals to allow you to spend the attacks twice.


Even on effects that don't replace attacks, named Force Powers do not stack unless it explicitly says they do, so Master Speed doesn't stack with itself.

You could, for example, Lightsaber Deflect two different attacks in the same turn, though.



Minor related technical question: could you use Lightsaber Deflect twice on the same attack? Usually a moot point since you could just re-roll it if you miss anyway. I'm just curious if that would count as trying to 'stack' Lightsaber Deflect. This would only come into play in the strange situation where you manage to give MotF2 and LS Defense to a character with Force Ascetic, since they wouldn't be able to reroll.
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:04:03 AM
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I didn't know that you couldn't use master speed twice. So, master speed doesn't stack because it's for the same movement? Does that mean that if GOWK wanted to move his max. extra squares, he'd use knight speed and then move faster?
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:25:02 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:

Minor related technical question: could you use Lightsaber Deflect twice on the same attack? Usually a moot point since you could just re-roll it if you miss anyway. I'm just curious if that would count as trying to 'stack' Lightsaber Deflect. This would only come into play in the strange situation where you manage to give MotF2 and LS Defense to a character with Force Ascetic, since they wouldn't be able to reroll.


That would be stacking.
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:27:38 AM
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So, you can't "stack" the same force power, SA, etc. on the same attack roll or movement? Does it say anything about this in the rulebook?
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:41:19 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

Minor related technical question: could you use Lightsaber Deflect twice on the same attack? Usually a moot point since you could just re-roll it if you miss anyway. I'm just curious if that would count as trying to 'stack' Lightsaber Deflect. This would only come into play in the strange situation where you manage to give MotF2 and LS Defense to a character with Force Ascetic, since they wouldn't be able to reroll.


That would be stacking.


Yup, this would follow the Lightsaber Riposte ruling.

This should be covered under stacking in the rulebook. The rule is pretty much, you can only benefit from an ability once per instance of use, unless it says otherwise.
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:42:57 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

Minor related technical question: could you use Lightsaber Deflect twice on the same attack? Usually a moot point since you could just re-roll it if you miss anyway. I'm just curious if that would count as trying to 'stack' Lightsaber Deflect. This would only come into play in the strange situation where you manage to give MotF2 and LS Defense to a character with Force Ascetic, since they wouldn't be able to reroll.


That would be stacking.


Yup, this would follow the Lightsaber Riposte ruling.

This should be covered under stacking in the rulebook. The rule is pretty much, you can only benefit from an ability once per instance of use, unless it says otherwise.

Thanks!ThumbsUp
Jedi_Master
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:59:41 PM
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The stacking rule:

stacking: In general, the effects produced by Force powers, special abilities, commander effects, and cover stack (are cumulative) with each other. For example, Tarfful grants followers within 6 squares a +4 bonus to Attack against adjacent enemies, and a Wookiee Berserker has Momentum, which grants an additional +4 bonus to Attack and +10 bonus to Damage against adjacent enemies if he has moved at least 1 square. Thus, a Wookiee Berserker within 6 squares of Tarfful would get a total bonus of +8 to Attack (as well as the bonus to Damage) if he has moved at least 1 square and attacks an adjacent enemy.
Unless otherwise specified, no effect produced by a Force power, special ability, commander effect, or cover stacks with itself. For example, a Clone Trooper Commander can give nearby Trooper followers a +3 bonus to Attack, but two Clone Trooper Commanders together can’t give a Trooper follower a +6 bonus.

The key is in bold. However, I will repeat it in case bold doesn't appear. Unless otherwise specified.

Here is master of the force again in the rulebook:

Master of the Force [#]: (Force) A character with this Force power may spend Force points up to the stated number of times in a single turn. This character can also spend Force points more than once to take the same action (such as moving an additional 2 squares or rerolling an attack).

Again, in bold is the key section, again re-posting it: This character can also spend Force points more than once to take the same action. The part in () denotes examples of, not the whole of (as it seems to be interpreted as), what is exempt from the rule.

One last point. The stacking rule specifically states the following: "Unless otherwise specified, no effect produced by a Force power, special ability, commander effect, or cover stacks with itself." The rule states EFFECT by a force power, SA, CE, or cover stacks. Preventing damage through abilities like parry and evade and ls defense more than once a turn would seem to be the same effect caused by one ability. However, Parry and evade state "whenever", denoting they can be used more than once, LS defense, however, does not have that distinction. It is only able to be used through MotF and only because it states they can "spend Force points more than once to take the same action" in one turn.

As such, the same should apply to abilities like sith rage OR not apply to abilities like force alter it is the same ability for the same effect. (which it currently does)
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:12:44 PM
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Nothing is stopping you from spending Force points to Sith Rage twice. This is sort of key in how it interacts with Force Defense/Absorb. You can activate Sith Rage twice. However, you will only get +10 Dam.

You are applying the timing far to broadly. Like I said, stacking applies PER INSTANCE of when it would be triggered. This changes between abilities. Evade and Riposte have the timing of once per attack. You can't Evade or Riposte the same attack twice. For Sith Rage, it applies to the turn. For Force Valor, it applies to the skirmish.
Jedi_Master
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:39:10 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Nothing is stopping you from spending Force points to Sith Rage twice. This is sort of key in how it interacts with Force Defense/Absorb. You can activate Sith Rage twice. However, you will only get +10 Dam.

You are applying the timing far to broadly. Like I said, stacking applies PER INSTANCE of when it would be triggered. This changes between abilities. Evade and Riposte have the timing of once per attack. You can't Evade or Riposte the same attack twice. For Sith Rage, it applies to the turn. For Force Valor, it applies to the skirmish.


But what I am asking is why can you use it twice but only gain +10 from it. I know you can use it twice if it gets absorbed, however, if it can be used twice that means you can be effected by it twice, meaning +20. There is no rule that prevents gaining more than one stat boost, only more than one from the same ability unless otherwise specified. If you can use the power twice and it is because MotF allows you to use the effect twice, it should grant +20 when used twice. Even more so, Master speed does not effect movement for the entire turn. You can use it before or after a mobile attack, meaning it is broken into two separate movements. By the logic you used for sith rage, you could move 12, attack, then mobile 6 with Master Speed.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:49:26 PM
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Being able to use an ability twice or more is not the same as saying it now stacks. And movement is generally one action, that Mobile and Greater Mobile are allowed to break up the usage, but it is still considered one action of movement.
Jedi_Master
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:16:00 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Being able to use an ability twice or more is not the same as saying it now stacks.


Can you show me where that distinction is made?
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:20:30 PM
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Not at the moment. It has been ruled that way for years. I would imagine maybe under Lightsaber Riposte entries. Otherwise, it would mean looking up stuff from around the CS and COTF years.
swinefeld
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:34:54 PM
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Flip it around. Saying an ability does not stack is not the same as saying it can't be used twice.

Quote:
Unless otherwise specified, no effect produced by a Force power, special ability, commander effect, or cover stacks with itself.


The 2nd instance just has no effect.

You can use Rage twice because it does not replace attacks/turn, and does not state "once per turn..." But the bonus will not stack because it is the same named ability, and it doesn't state that the bonus stacks in the ability definition.

The only reason I can think of where you would ever use it more than once is if the first instance got cancelled.

Jedi_Master
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:35:56 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Not at the moment. It has been ruled that way for years. I would imagine maybe under Lightsaber Riposte entries. Otherwise, it would mean looking up stuff from around the CS and COTF years.


The lightsaber riposte rule is from not being able to react immediately after an attack twice (resolving effects). Riposte must happen directly after an attack, meaning after using it you must make an attack. You can't then attack then react to the trigger attack again because it is no longer immediately after that trigger attack. You can, however, riposte then take the double and riposte again. Though I am still confused by that logic why you can block and then riposte because the same problem occurs...

None of that still answers the initial question either. Why is it when MotF specifically says you can stack effects the standard ruling is you can not?

swinefeld wrote:
Flip it around. Saying an ability does not stack is not the same as saying it can't be used twice.

Quote:
Unless otherwise specified, no effect produced by a Force power, special ability, commander effect, or cover stacks with itself.


The 2nd instance just has no effect.

You can use Rage twice because it does not replace attacks/turn, and does not state "once per turn..." But the bonus will not stack because it is the same named ability, and it doesn't state that the bonus stacks in the ability definition.

The only reason I can think of where you would ever use it more than once is if the first instance got cancelled.


But, again, MotF states you can use the same action twice. In the case of movement (or moving faster in this sense) the action is moving further. In the sense of rage, raging is the action. Why would an ability state you can use an action twice if the effect could only be used once? Why also would it then work differently for abilities like alter who can effect multiple different targets as it is still the same ability causing the effect?

I am mostly asking these questions because I have played the game for a very long time and the ruling in this case has never made sense from a rules stand point. Nickname said it and it was so, even if there was evidence to the contrary. That WAS good enough at the time. I only bring it up now because the community is at a point where it is making its own rules decisions and this one seems like one that should be reversed as it causes confusion among newer players. MotF says you can use it more than once and for 90% of force powers that is true and acts in the most logical way but for a half dozen force powers it doesn't work like that.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:50:10 PM
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Jedi_Master wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Not at the moment. It has been ruled that way for years. I would imagine maybe under Lightsaber Riposte entries. Otherwise, it would mean looking up stuff from around the CS and COTF years.


The lightsaber riposte rule is from not being able to react immediately after an attack twice (resolving effects). Riposte must happen directly after an attack, meaning after using it you must make an attack. You can't then attack then react to the trigger attack again because it is no longer immediately after that trigger attack. You can, however, riposte then take the double and riposte again. Though I am still confused by that logic why you can block and then riposte because the same problem occurs...

None of that still answers the initial question either. Why is it when MotF specifically says you can stack effects the standard ruling is you can not?



The decision about whether to use Lightsaber Riposte and Lightsaber Block must be made immediately, but then they are resolved in whatever order the player chooses (simultaneous effects). You can't use Riposte or Block twice on the same attack due to stacking rules.
Jedi_Master
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:56:24 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Jedi_Master wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Not at the moment. It has been ruled that way for years. I would imagine maybe under Lightsaber Riposte entries. Otherwise, it would mean looking up stuff from around the CS and COTF years.


The lightsaber riposte rule is from not being able to react immediately after an attack twice (resolving effects). Riposte must happen directly after an attack, meaning after using it you must make an attack. You can't then attack then react to the trigger attack again because it is no longer immediately after that trigger attack. You can, however, riposte then take the double and riposte again. Though I am still confused by that logic why you can block and then riposte because the same problem occurs...

None of that still answers the initial question either. Why is it when MotF specifically says you can stack effects the standard ruling is you can not?



The decision about whether to use Lightsaber Riposte and Lightsaber Block must be made immediately, but then they are resolved in whatever order the player chooses (simultaneous effects). You can't use Riposte or Block twice on the same attack due to stacking rules.


*sigh* and the stacking rule states: Unless otherwise specified, no effect produced by a Force power, special ability, commander effect, or cover stacks with itself. For example, a Clone Trooper Commander can give nearby Trooper followers a +3 bonus to Attack, but two Clone Trooper Commanders together can’t give a Trooper follower a +6 bonus.

MotF States: A character with this Force power may spend Force points up to the stated number of times in a single turn. This character can also spend Force points more than once to take the same action

MotF is a specific exception, as per the stacking rule and its own wording.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:59:14 PM
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LoboSteele explains the speed issue nicely here - http://www.swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=10401&p=120807

Quote:
Think of it this way. You have to declare all use of Force Powers for extra movement before you start any of your movement.

So, if you declare you're going to use Master Speed, then you can now move 6 extra spaces during your movement phase, in addition to your normal movement. Now, if you declare you want to use Master Speed a 2nd time, now you can move "6 extra squares during your turn." Either way you slice it, you're getting "6 extra squares" in addition to your normal movement. So that's how the stacking works.
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