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Design "Blurb?" Options
corranhorn
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013 4:02:55 PM
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I saw an idea that I really liked on the forums-I forget who posted it- that the Vset designers could write an article about the design of certain controversial pieces, in the same way that WotC did. Now, an article is a big chunk of time, but maybe soething like 3 sentences (possibly even on the piece's page on Bloo Mlik) about the design process behind pieces that many have had issues with. Examples would include Dooku SL, Laranth, etc. I myself have been fairly critical of some of the design choices (and I'm not proud of that, but I'll speak up if I think I see a problem), and I know I personally would probably not need to bring up issues if this were to happen.
qvos
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:41:55 PM
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That does sound like a good idea.
Mando
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2013 8:38:51 PM
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Sounds like something that could be put on the star wars miniatures resources website. I like the idea!
UrbanShmi
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 3:29:19 AM
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What you're asking presupposes that the designers know what pieces you (or anyone else) will think are "controversial" before the set comes out. With some obviously very powerful pieces, like Bastila, sure. But I don't think anyone on the design team expected Laranth, for example, to be controversial (and my husband was on the team that designed her, so I do know a little bit about that process).

The most I could see happening would be for the community to have the opportunity to pick, say, five pieces in a set to get some more details on the design process. Even that, though, would not forestall all criticism, even on the selected pieces.

It seems like a lot of the criticisms I see on specific characters fall into one of two camps: People who really like or know a lot about a particular EU character that not everyone is as familiar with, who "would have done it differently," and people who think that a particular powerful piece unbalances the game in some way. The first group may never be happy with any explanation of the process, because the answer sometimes is simply, "Not every Jedi master can be as powerful as Obi-Wan, even if there might be source material to support that interpretation." The game needs pieces of varying power levels and abilities to keep things interesting, and the fact is that the characters who most people are most familiar with are always going to get a little more love. That's part of the abstraction of the game, even if it isn't always fair. I personally would love to see an awesome "Shmi, Mother of the Chosen One." But I accept that that's never going to happen BigGrin

The second group of criticisms might be addressed to some degree by in-depth explanations of the design process on a particular powerful piece. And that can certainly be a valuable discussion to have. But for a piece designed specifically for competitive play at the highest levels, problematic effects in individual playgroups (which is what a lot of early criticisms seem to be based on) don't necessarily signal a larger problem. That doesn't mean that those experiences aren't important and shouldn't be considered to some degree in the design process. But the ultimate effects of a piece on the "national competitive meta," if there even is such a thing any more, can't be known until that piece has been seen at a variety of large, competitive events. The design team can try to predict the effects of any particular piece through careful discussion, playtesting, and revisions, but the unexpected can always happen. Maybe for those relatively few pieces that are expected (and deliberately designed) to be "game-changers," some explanation of the expected effects and the reason those effects seem desirable would be appropriate. But I think that for the most part the designers have been pretty forthcoming about the thought process behind these pieces, and will likely continue to be.

I obviously don't speak for the design team in any capacity, so maybe I've overstepped a bit here. And certainly some of the "criticism threads" can take on a nasty tone that isn't necessarily terribly productive. I just don't know if, realistically, that's something that can be avoided by preemptive explanations, particularly when there's no real way to predict exactly which pieces people might have a problem with, beyond the obvious ones like Bastila or Mace LOTLS.
qvos
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:40:44 AM
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Urbanshmi does bring up a good point. the point about not knowing which pieces might turn out to be controversial is valid. It might be too much work on behalf of the Design team to have to explain each piece anyway. I also like the idea of not knowing anything till after the pieces are released. Just remember though that communication is the key, between designers and the general community, which is dwindling. I think the designers have done a nice job of making game pieces that help balance the game. Just as in the WOTC days, some pieces turn out to be abusive to the game, or perhaps I should say, turned into more powerful weapons then intented. Thats to be expected when the game outgrows the simplicity of the original rules. Keep up the good work Designers and also please keep communicating! I respect all your work.BlooMilk
UrbanShmi
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:31:31 AM
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Yes, I agree, a little more openness in the design process might be desirable. I'm just not sure what form that openness could or should take. We have 3-4 person teams for a reason, because you simply can't take everyone in the community into account with every piece. One way to open more communication with the designers, though, is to volunteer as a play-tester. I know some people have small or non-existent groups, but you can do proxy tests on Vassal, or even just build two squads and play them against each other yourself. The more playtest data they receive, the more accurate view they get of what a piece does. And the more of the community that feels included in, rather than excluded from, the process, I think the less complaints there will be with the finished product. However, the final decision, and responsibility, must still lie with the design team, even if what they come up with isn't what someone else would want.

markedman247
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:49:42 AM
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I'd say it like this:
Reveal a preview on the Podcast or website.
Then add a blurb for it on SWRes for more detail. I think the past "power" pieces have been discussed ad nauseum. Just start with the new set.

corranhorn
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 6:04:58 AM
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Really what I meant was that after the set released, the designers could see if any pieces were sparking controversy and than pick something like 2 or 3 of them to briefly explain.
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 7:04:10 AM
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I emailed Sithborg and Echo (who runs swmresources) 2 weeks ago discussing this. I drew up a few guideline questions, and sithborg and I discussed the possibility of spoiling pieces along with an article that allows the community to get into the designers head. Waiting to hear back at this point. The design process has recently been changed, which does make it a little more difficult to report on... But, maybe that will just make the whole thing more interesting to read about.
leshippy
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:00:32 AM
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Pick a past piece that you want to know about and I will see what I can find in that pieces design thread and copy it over. That will be the simplest way to start. Keep in mind that there are other communications that go on during the process, but this should give you a farily good idea.
markedman247
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:02:49 AM
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leshippy wrote:
Pick a past piece that you want to know about and I will see what I can find in that pieces design thread and copy it over. That will be the simplest way to start. Keep in mind that there are other communications that go on during the process, but this should give you a farily good idea.


You guys are taking bets in those threads to see how many pieces will cause the fans "butt hurt," aren't you? ;)
corranhorn
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:07:59 AM
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markedman247 wrote:
leshippy wrote:
Pick a past piece that you want to know about and I will see what I can find in that pieces design thread and copy it over. That will be the simplest way to start. Keep in mind that there are other communications that go on during the process, but this should give you a farily good idea.


You guys are taking bets in those threads to see how many pieces will cause the fans "butt hurt," aren't you? ;)


Probably anything Unique and under 30 points. Wink
AndyHatton
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:20:47 AM
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leshippy wrote:
Pick a past piece that you want to know about and I will see what I can find in that pieces design thread and copy it over. That will be the simplest way to start. Keep in mind that there are other communications that go on during the process, but this should give you a farily good idea.


He isn't past yet and I'm sure you can't do anything quite yet because we don't have a full view of the V-set 5 Sith, but I'd really like to see the design-talks behind Darth Caedus, Sith Lord. I love the character and I think the piece is really interesting.
leshippy
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:26:39 AM
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So any thing v-set 4 or earlier. Please just give me a name.
leshippy
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:41:43 AM
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LESHIPPY
Post subject: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:52 am
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So I have been thinking of having a Grevious that is really more of a fighter and not a commander.

Grievous
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Flurry
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Weak Spot – If a non-melee attack against this character is a natural 20 it is defeated.
Rapport - Characters whose name contains MagnaGuard cost one less

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billiv15
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:08 am
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Highly suggest "Grappling Hook" for him. Also Weak spot should be triple damage from crits, not auto-defeat.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:12 pm
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Weak Spot is already an ability on an AT-AT.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:15 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
So I have been thinking of having a Grevious that is really more of a fighter and not a commander.

Grievous
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Flurry
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Weak Spot – If a non-melee attack against this character is a natural 20 it is defeated.
Rapport - Characters whose name contains MagnaGuard cost one less



I like this, for the most part. I think I would drop Flurry and Duelist and give him a Force rating with Force 1. Probably go back to Quad Attack as well. Do we really need another moving 60 damage figure in the Separatist faction? Then again, most of the others aren't currently being played so maybe it's not that big a deal.

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:15 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Weak Spot is already an ability on an AT-AT.


I thought it was on something, but couldn't remember what.

Maybe go with soft spot, design flaw, ... i think this will work though "chink in armor"

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:56 am
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Thinking about the drawback, is it too huge to keep the character from being played?

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:55 pm
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I looked at the Grevios pieces out there becasue other than GGDAC none get played. By dropping flurry and duelist you pretty mush have a 55 point GG scourge of the Jedi with Wall climber and Rapport. This still doesn't really capture that Grevious was a bad ass in my mind. Maybe 55 is to low? But I looked at other 55 point pieces and the stats seemed to be about right. Plus no force points means you have to make up the difference in SA right?

Chink in the Armor should be this characater take triple damage on crits. After looking at the thread I thought I posted this here, but it must have been in another conversation I was having. Thoughts?

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:04 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
I looked at the Grevios pieces out there becasue other than GGDAC none get played. By dropping flurry and duelist you pretty mush have a 55 point GG scourge of the Jedi with Wall climber and Rapport. This still doesn't really capture that Grevious was a bad ass in my mind. Maybe 55 is to low? But I looked at other 55 point pieces and the stats seemed to be about right. Plus no force points means you have to make up the difference in SA right?

Chink in the Armor should be this characater take triple damage on crits. After looking at the thread I thought I posted this here, but it must have been in another conversation I was having. Thoughts?



I think he will have a hard enough time with shooters anyway that we shouldnt make him have a 5% change to die to a stormtrooper. He can't do anything about getting shot, thats bad enough without having him just suck even worse against guns.

I do get what your going for though with Obi shooting him finally kills him.

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm
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yeah that is why I want to change it to triple damage on crits instad of double.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:37 pm
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Quote:
Grievous
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Duelist
Jedi Hunter

CE:(Droids are subject to this effect) Characters in your squad whos name contains Magnaguard gain Bodyguard


Added a CE for Magnaguards (Maybe people will play them). I didnt care for weak spot but you can put that back on if you want to. Basicly Grevious F's up jedi like he is supposed to and his parry and magnaguards BG'ing him keep him alive.



Jeez I'm putting a lot of BG into this set lol

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:46 am
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Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to double its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy twice as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:36 pm
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Not really sure that he needs to be a commander. If we added that CE I would like to give him Rapport with Magma gaurds as well.

I like the spinning blade I was just wondering how this would work with twin? Does he get to hit each piece he passes 4 time or just 2 and twin is ignored. The wording is just a bit odd on this. Then again maybe it is just me.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:48 pm
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I forgot he had Twin. Just reword it to 1 attack and then he gets the Twin as normal.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:50 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to double its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)


Also agree that I wouldn't make this guy a commander.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:44 pm
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I like spinning blade attack. I think it should be only his speed, not double. He was moving pretty slowly with his feet while he was doing that move. It gives him a lit of power when he is surrounded by Jedi to get a bunch of attacks in and escape with wall climber.

I put the ce on as a just in case. Like if down the line we make a living sep ce we won't have to worry about this guy. It was just an option. No ce is fine

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:56 pm
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He already gets OOM-9's CE along with all of the other available living CE's in the faction. Good reminder.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:35 pm
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That was my reasoning. But hey if it gets people to run oom-9 go for it lol.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:30 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Grievous
Cost 60?
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Lightsaber Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)


So when you surround grevious he can take out a ton of jedi closeby. If you rush him with your dudes he can take em all on so I figured 60ish would be about right. Is this closer to what you had in mind Les?

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Echo
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:37 pm
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FYI, we created "Melee Duelist" for Marak Ragnos (+4 Defense when attacked by an adjacent enemy). I'm assuming that by "Duelist" you mean "Lightsaber Duelist" (+4 Defense when attacked by an adjacent enemy with a force rating), but that should probably be clarified.

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:13 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Weeks wrote:
Quote:
Grievous
Cost 60?
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Lightsaber Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)


So when you surround grevious he can take out a ton of jedi closeby. If you rush him with your dudes he can take em all on so I figured 60ish would be about right. Is this closer to what you had in mind Les?


55ish I think. Grand Master Yoda
55
150
22
+15
20
Plus SA, FP, and CE of +3 +3

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PAGE 2

Quote:
Grievous
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Lightsaber Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)



Ready to PT per Les.

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urbanjedi
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:13 am
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This guy is pretty cool

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:57 pm
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Showed this guy to spry and played around with him some. Spinning blades needs to be fleshed out some. Are we intending it to be like gallop where you do your attacks as you move or like strafe where you have to show your landing/stopping point? Also should it nit draw aoo's like gallop? He has wall climber to get around people so it's not too big a hit to the ability.

Its an interesting ability. It's not something you have to use for him to be good it's just a neat thing he can do when the situation calls for it.

My only other suggestion is maybe loom at speed 8 on him.

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urbanjedi
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:10 pm
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or give him a FP so he can move faster?

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:29 pm
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I vote Force point.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: GrevoiusPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:43 am
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Quote:
Grievous
Cost 60
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Lightsaber Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Force 1

"Jedi! You are surrounded, your army is decimated. Make peace with the Force now…for this is your final hour."


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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:22 pm
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So a force point = 5 points in cost? Really?

Move him back down to 55.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:27 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
So a force point = 5 points in cost? Really?

Move him back down to 55.


Agreed.

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urbanjedi
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:36 pm
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agreed also. 55 and ready for PT

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:42 pm
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Grievous
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Lightsaber Duelist
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Force 1

Updated cost

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WacoBlaze
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:54 am
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Embo, Shada D'ukal, YVH-2. Grievous

DarthBane53 Game 3
V-SET 4 PLAYTEST FORM/INFORMATION
MAP PLAYED: 2010 Jedi Cartographer Map Pack 4 (Jedi Temple?) Opposite of Asteroid base.
YOUR NAME: DarthBane53
FACTION: Mandalorian (Technically Fringe, only 1 Mando)
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED:9
TOTAL COST: 198
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE):
V-SET 4 MINIS: Embo, Shada D'ukal,YVH2
OPPONENT’S NAME: DarthZar94
FACTION: Separatists
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED:9
TOTAL COST: 200
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE): BodyGuard Droid x2, Battle Droid, A4 Series Lab Droid
V-SET 4 MINIS: Grevious
(1) How did the characters abilities interact with each other? For grievous not to well. I was unable to really find any abilities to compliment him, I brought in much repair but there was no amazing synergy that I found. I think he could benefit with the new additions to living seps in the future. As well as embo because he was unique I didn't find any other extremely useful abilities to pair him with.
(2) Did you understand how the Special Abilities/Commander Effect interactions work after reading them just once? Yes
(3) Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Was anything out of place or missing? Everything seemed good for my knowledge of the characters par embo, sorry to say but he was disappointing. With only one attack there was nothing he did over any other character, and at that he was over cost alot for his current abilities. I know he couldn't be a second cad bane but I think the character himself deserves much more redeeming abilities. Here are a few that I suggest First off, some form of multiple attacks, I understand the maybe not wanting to give him the other normal abilities, here’s a suggestion.
Thin the Crowd: replaces attacks: If there is no more than 1 enemy within six squares this character can make 3 attacks against that enemy. (I think this fits him because as seen in the TV show throughout he is always finding 1 solitary pirate and destroying them thus, thinning the crowd.
Also one of the staples of the character his he high jumps and fast movement I think this is captured well with speed 8 but he also has amazing athletics so here’s a new ability I think would fit him very well. Similar to force leap but not quite as powerful.
Acrobatics Expertise: On this characters turn during this characters movement, you may specify that at any points during his movement for half his movement he may ignore all difficult terrain and is not subject to attacks of opportunity, all this movement would be consecutive squares.
Basically saying that at any point in his move he can choose 4 consecutive with out being attacked and moving over terrain to replicate jumping. I worded it as such above so the ability may be used on other characters who only have normal speed.
(4) Do the mini(s) work? Embo is quite useless in his current state.
(5) Is the cost accurate? Shadra I believe is over costed, a cool character with some interesting abilities but at 28, I think a cost of even 18-20 and maybe -10hp to balance her out would allow her much more use. As stated above embo was much over costed for his current state.
(6) Any suggestions for it/them? Listed in other sections.
(7) Analysis/description of the game: At the beginning of the game he fringe team had the lead because of range advantages, but with grievous using body guards and repair droids he never went down to low HP. By the time the seps got in range grievous was able to cut off half the squad by a wall with bodyguard droids in the way and he quickly took cut down his adjacent enemy’s, cad flew away (only to later fail a save for homicidal surgery, which was quite disheartening =P) at this point all the fringers with in 6 and grievous used spinning blades through the crowd to cut every one down. Shadra was able to take out a body guard droid and ugnaught with her zenji needles (cool ability but doesn’t seem to incredibly preferable over a double range with 20 damage.) The YVH2 pulled of a lucky grenade shot and took out the med doid and hurt 2 body guard droids (which wat tambor later brought back in) embo was unable to pull off any shots and when he did was quite useless, the bonus attacks and defenses didn’t mean much because for almost a 4th of squad he did nothing. He was last to survive but guard droids got up to him and took him out with no problem.

*** From the playtester: “For one of those in charge, still waiting on a final word from the designers as to what Drain Life 20 should be."



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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:28 pm
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Where was OOM-9?

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WacoBlaze
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:47 pm
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...too brief but at least a PT. Already let everyone know about the need to expound on their thoughts of the PT. Will remind him.

Got another game for you
I used Republic commandos, darmin, fi, atin, and niner, with captain rex and r2,d2
My opponent used Savage Oppress, The new Grievous, Sidious with PotDS, poggle the lesser and bombs.
I won the game with Fi and niner still alive, but they had like 20-30 hitpoints left one more grievous whirlwind and it was over. I love the new grievous, and think he is really needed to get the seps out of the lancer trench. He made some tactical errors, namely trying to run savage out in the open and bank on winning init to get him into the fight. He lost Savage before he could declare an attack, but from there it was all grievous. He just cuts up everything. I think his cost is about right as well. sorry so short at work. Just wanted to say i love the new grievous and think he is costed well.



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WacoBlaze
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:28 pm
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V-SET 4 PLAYTEST FORM/INFORMATION
MAP PLAYED: Hall of Judgment
YOUR NAME: Mike Giles
FACTION: Republic
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 13 – Capt. Tarpals, R2 Astro, Mas Amedda, 5 x Gungan Art., Capt. Panaka, Zam Wessel BH, RC Darman, mouse droid, ugnaught veteran
TOTAL COST: 198
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE):
V-SET 4 MINIS: Zam Wessel BH, ugnaught veteran

OPPONENT’S NAME: Todd Jones
FACTION: Separatist
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 27 – 15 x Geo Drones, Poggle, Grievous (55), Gha Nacht, 3 x IG-86, Whorm Loathsome, BDO, 2 x mouse, 2 x R7
TOTAL COST: 200
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE):
V-SET 4 MINIS: Grievous

(1) How did the characters abilities interact with each other?

Quite well, Zam as played before works well in Tarpals’ squads and I worked in Panaka to be able to move her around easily setting up shots or double missiles if needed. The ugnaught veteran was very nice and the ability to do double shatterbeam every round was very cool. I actually found myself shattering doors simply because I could and did some that might have been better left not shattered. Grievous was a part of his hybrid squad to have a heavy hitter that could go with Jedi should I have had any (did not).

(2) Did you understand how the Special Abilities/Commander Effect interactions work after reading them just once?

Yes, very easy to understand for any player with even the smallest experience. Read and played.


(3) Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Was anything out of place or missing?

Yes, there was nothing that was lacking we could find. He actually never really got to use the Spinning Blade attack as he failed some cesta, missile rolls that made Grievous have to turn and run to escape.

(4) Do the mini(s) work?

Yes. Grievous is a nice change as his HP and Parry make him a viable fighter after so many that could not fight. Wall climber fits his character and is 1 more way he is more complete. The ugnaught veteran is cool as well. Not sure how often he will be played by me in other squads, but he is nice since it will allow every faction the shatterbeam ability that was only available for OR previously. Zam is quite cool and much better now that she has a double attack. Is she now able to benefit from Twin and Whorm…as she will be a very powerful piece if so? If the Dengar with Final Shot costs in the 30’s with a max of 2 attacks with Whorm, then a piece in the 40’s such as Zam might cost too little since she could conceivably do 4 attacks with Final Shot.


(5) Is the cost accurate?

With exception of Zam, I would say so. Grievous if he possessed a CE would need to be more but since he is a fighter he is fine where he is at. The ugnaught veteran is fine at 11.


(6) Any suggestions for it/them?

Maybe drop grenades and add evade to help his longevity as I am skeptical he will ever be close enough to the action to use them.


(7) Analysis/description of the game:

A really close game won by Todd 126-99, but errors on my part prevented me from winning like 99-90. We went 5 rounds which is pretty good considering his high number of activations. I started round 1 by blasting 2 doors with the ugnaught veteran. I managed to pop a couple drones from afar with double missiles and we positioned with me in gambit thanks to a tow and move. Round 2 closer engagement with me blowing 2 more doors and doing a bit of towing and swapping to set up double cestas. Another gambit for me and a score of like 20-0 after round 2. He manages in round 3 to pop of and kill some poorly placed Gungans with his IG-86’s while advancing Grievous into a room in the upper middle (coming from the right) to see how he will do in a fight.

Well, managed to hit him with a missile courtesy of Tarpals from Zam and he missed 1 of 2 rolls. Next he missed 2 cesta rolls putting him at 70 dmg. He takes 20 more and has 50 HP left before he can run in some drones to block for Grievous. Even though I have killed an R7 and a smattering of drones, he is winning because of killing 3 gungans. Round 4 he apologizes and runs Grievous to the rear of his front to try to save him. He is up like 50 to maybe 40. At the end of the 4th round I run Zam next to R2 Astro with 10 HP left and tow her inside a blocked drone room at the top. Round 5 I win initiative and tow Zam all the way up to block Grievous and leave 2 squares between us so he can’t get off 4 attacks on Zam. He cannot get away with Grievous and moves up and hits Zam once. I kill Grievous with Final Shot but not before rolling a 1 and missing on the first roll. This kills me as I could have killed an IG-86 with the 2nd shot with Final Shot. I move someone else thinking no way I lose and he kills R2 and hits Zam once more. When I go with Panaka, I have no idea why I didn’t across board swap Mas for Zam as this would have won the game. He ultimately kills an open Zam with IG-86’s and wins a close game. The pieces all worked fine and the potential to blow double doors each round with Tarpals and the veteran ugnaught is cool but not really abusive (at least in this game).



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Weeks
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:46 pm
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This guys big power I think is in a San Hill/MTB squad. Run grievous with a single Lancer, Sid, San, Poggle and a bunch of drones. Outact and fly the lancer around and back a couple times. Grievous then runs in and Takes out big threats with whirling blades.

He should get played with the Commando Spotter as well. His big negative is he has nothing against shooting. The Spotters energy shield gets rid of that weakness.

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:02 am
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I played him last week with the spotter. I won the game, but neither my opponent or myself felt the combo was broken. Tough yes, but not more than other pieces in the game at the same point level. With the spotter you are adding a minimum of 14 points if you are playing the sniper and gha naght as well. So basically making the grevious spotter a 69 point combo.

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Echo
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:05 am
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I'm just curious, is this guy's name really supposed to just be "Grievous"? That's fine if so, just seems a little odd to me. Something along the lines of "Grievous of Hypori" might fit better.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:00 pm
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Where did he beat the 5 Jedi masters + padawans at?

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Echo
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:47 pm
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That was the Battle of Hypori, which is why I suggested that name.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:21 pm
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Yeah, let's change his name...

General Grievous, Hero of Hypori

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Echo
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:26 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah, let's change his name...

General Grievous, Hero of Hypori


I really, really like that one. It goes nicely with the line from the RotS opening crawl "There are heroes on both sides."

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: Grevoius*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:38 pm
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I was thinking the same thing.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:47 pm
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Ok, played this guy again with the Single Lancer and Bomb backup.

Hero Grievous
Lancer
Sid
Lobot (MTB + 4 uggies)
San
Poggle
BDO
uggie
x10 Drones

VS

GOWK
Mace
Rex
Fi
r2
uggie
Rodian Diplomat
Spaarti Clone

Map was Spynet HQ

Ok, Mace was a good counter to the Lancer. The lancer did 20 damage to mace late game and that was all it did. Mace hit with a crit on his riposte, then crit the flurry, then hit. Dead Lancer. The game really changed when grievous got off a huge Spinning Blade attack. With the MTB's help, grievous spent his force point to late round move 8 and hit rex, Obi, Fi, R2, and Mace with his attack. Because of wall climber he was able to get into the turbolift they were hiding in and attack them all. The range was even bigger due to being adjacent and not just who he passes over like with strafe. If I'm playing it right I'm using it as a short distance Galloping attack like ability. But when combined with Wall Climber its power is incredible.

End of round, then begining of round Grievous put 90 on Mace, kills rex, Fi, r2, uggie. And grievous takes 100 back from mace's ripostes (-a few parries from GG). After that the lancer tries to help but mace swats it down in one hit. Now its full health GOWK + 40 HP mace vs my bombs and sideous. Sid zaps gowk and bombs surround him. At init I set one off with the MTB and obi dies. Then Sideous finishes off Mace (JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES!).

All in all Grievous' power is that spinning blades trick he has. I've only been able to use it when I've played him with the MTB or my opponent just not been ready for it. It's a much weaker form of strafe, but its able to get into and out of hard to reach spots via Wall Climber. We might even be able to take off the "you cant take aoo's on him" thing. With wall climber he can avoid them anyway and it would make him much more like galloping attack. That's not a must though just an idea. It is nicely balanced though as you can only use it when he is over half hp. He's also very weak against shooting. He was Pwning a bunch of jedi but once some ARC's showed up to the fight he had to run because he had no answer for their shooting.

For 55 points you could do far worse then grievous. The only thing I would change is duelist +parry. Having Parry is more then enough melee defense for him. Master Jedi should be able to take him down like mace did. I'd advise dropping duelist and calling it good.

General Grievous, Hero of Hypori
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Force 1

The last thing is should we tack a CE on him to prevent him from being ran with OOM-9? Or are we trying to encourage OOM-9's playtime?

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WacoBlaze
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:39 am
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Just my opinion, but I think he is more of a fighter (in the right spot) and has quite a lot of abilities. If he had a CE as well, I think he might have to go up in cost. Just my two cents.



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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:55 am
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Ya the only thing I could think of is giving Magnaguards Grievous' BG or something. But not really necessary. I'm good with calling him done. QC

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:44 am
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I would like to see OOM-9 get played, but even if it's not this guy should not be a commander.

QC.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:51 pm
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General Grievous, Hero of Hypori
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This character can't attack the same enemy twice using this ability)

Force 1

Removed the "Can't be aoo'd" part of spinning blades. He should be able to use twin. So it should basically work like galloping attack but with a much shorter range. I'm not sure if the "can only attack one enemy" part needs to stay since it's a replaces turn ability. Someone help me out on that wording please.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:59 pm
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The can't be "aoo'd" part must stay in. It creates rules confusion if he is moving and suddenly can't continue his attack/movement.

Also, from a flavor standpoint when the blades are whirling are you really going to stop what you're doing to try to get a hit in?

Quote:
General Grievous, Hero of Hypori
Cost 55
140
20
+12
20
Unique, Melee, Double, Twin
Wall climber
Parry
Cyborg
Jedi Hunter
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Force 1

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Sithborg
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:13 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
The can't be "aoo'd" part must stay in. It creates rules confusion if he is moving and suddenly can't continue his attack/movement.


How so? It works just like Gallopping Attack currently, and there doesn't seem to be that much confusion over how that works in cases where the movement is stopped or an attack misses. It causes issues with things like Strafe Attack or Tow Cable.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:20 pm
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How does it cause issues with Strafe Attack or Tow Cable? He doesn't have those abilities, nor can he get them. It does create rules confusion with Wall Climber. Regardless, I think it should be on there for flavor purposes even if that wasn't true. Plus, I don't like the idea of him suddenly losing his best ability just because someone got a lucky hit in at the wrong moment.

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Sithborg
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:31 pm
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Ahh, I was looking more at the mere movement part, where is most of the AoO's question seem to spring up from. I can see some questions about the HP question, and it would be the first kind of ruling of it's kind. Either way, it will be worked out, just a slight tweaking to the wording one way.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:34 am
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Well, I'd rather leave the no aoo's stipulation on there.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:44 am
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my point was that he ignores them anyway with wall climber. But whatever its just nitpicking at this point he's fine

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:15 am
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I disagree with taking off duelist and making the spinning blades on when above half health.

You are dumbing the guy down and what is the point of having another shitty grevious that doesn't get played. Which if you go back and read the earlier post was part of the discussion.

This guys goes down to shooters like a punk. Making the spinning blades only at above half health really weakens this guy. Cad Bane or several other characters steps up and lands 70 HP on this guy in a single activation and the piece is now junk.

As for duelist, do you not watch any of his fights? Come on the guy should have it. So, he is hard for Jedi to hit. That is sort of the point now isn't it. He is a bad ass with lightsabers and should be able to mow through people that don't have lightsabers or a way to defend themselves against melee attacks.

Yeah you could add oom-9 with him and I have ran him with that. Problem is that you have to have a mouse droid keep up with him which with wall climber can be more difficult than normal added with that the ability to use force to move a bit quicker makes you really plan when and wher you are going to set up that spinning blade attack. If your opponent can't see that coming, maybe you should start playing better competition.

So hold your horses on the QC just because one guy wants to make changes before the rest of us can chime in. EDIT My bad I didn't see Dennis chime in as well.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:33 am
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Those changes are fine Les if you want to make them. The issue with that is he would cost a lot more then 55 with those.

A 24 Defense vs Jedi + Parry + double twin + Jedi hunter is very very good. Adding on spinning blades is just gravy. The spinning blades thing has always been above half health since Dennis came up with it, it's not just something I threw on him.

I'm sorry if I offended you by trying to push this guy through that wasn't my intent. But keeping duelist and making spinning blades work all the time would push his cost up almost to the high 60s and early 70s. I'd rather him stay around the 50s so he is easier to run.

Try him out in the MTB lancer squad I posted. He can destroy other teams with a spinning blades end of round/start of round move. That's 80 damage to non Jedi or 120 to Jedi that he hits. Then after he is done he still has 140 HP for them to eat through. With him and the lancer chewing through enemies that squad is T1 upon inception.

I think you are underestimating the sheer power of Parry/Duelist. A 24 defense means a standard Jedi needs a 10 to hit him, then grievous can parry that that's only a 22.5% chance to get damage on him, it's even lower if grievous spends his force point to reroll. When he attacks a Jedi back he needs only a 4 to hit a standard Jedi and he can do it 4 times OR move and twin everyone with 6-8. I took duelist off because parry cuts all hits against him in half anyway.

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:05 pm
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Count Dooku of Serenno
51
130
21
+16
20
duelist, makashi mastery basically a better parry
double melee

force 5
LS Riposte
force lighting


No one seems to be glamouring that the duelist and makashi are out of hand. Granted he doesn't have the damage out put greivous does, but that was part of making grievous. Making a beat stick for the seps, something that will be played and something that makes the jedi afraid.

If not parry then 4 force and block? Several folks have duelist and block here are the ones that have it with renewal. Luccien Dray, Kyle combat instructor, kol, Tyranus LOTDS, Shaak Ti Jedi master. note very seldom do any of them see play at tournaments.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:23 pm
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thats true but dooku does 40 damage per round as opposed to grievous' 120 (or even more with spinning blades). I think parry + rerolls is scary enough.

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:27 pm
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I want him to be in the 55 point area as well.

Sorry I have a bad 16 hours. Power outage here at Mackey Arena has my brain fried trying to deal with problems.

I have reread the post.

What if instead of parry, we give him back duelist and give him force 2 and LS block.

Here is my thoughts. With out Sidous he only has 2 FP to use and is sort of fragile anyway. Going up against jedi with ripost or something like riposte, you will be torn whether burn you one FP to move extra or to block any attacks that might be coming back your way.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:52 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
I want him to be in the 55 point area as well.

Sorry I have a bad 16 hours. Power outage here at Mackey Arena has my brain fried trying to deal with problems.


no worries

Quote:
I have reread the post.

What if instead of parry, we give him back duelist and give him force 2 and LS block.

Here is my thoughts. With out Sidous he only has 2 FP to use and is sort of fragile anyway. Going up against jedi with ripost or something like riposte, you will be torn whether burn you one FP to move extra or to block any attacks that might be coming back your way.


I wouldn't be opposed to that personally. Just in my mind Parry is more of his fighting style. Duelist kind of somes up Dooku. Grievous is taking on a ton of jedi at once becuase he has 4 arms all defending his body from attacks. Dooku has duelist because he is patient and can hold off someones attacks until he finds an opening.

We can give it a try but my vote still goes to Parry over Duelist/Block. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:50 pm
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Okay, so the "must be above half HP" was my idea due to the fact that Obi-Wan cuts his arms off after he makes the attack. I get that he dies to shooters, and I'm not sure if that is a problem for me or not. I will think more about it.

In the meantime, here is some middle ground possibility...

Quote:
General Grievous, Hero of Hypori
Cost 42
120 Hit Points
19 Defense
+10 Attack
20 Damage
Unique. Melee Attack. Double Attack. Twin Attack
Wall Climber
Stealth
Cyborg
Jedi Hunter
Parry
Spinning Blade Attack (Replaces turn, useable only while this character has more than half his hit points: This character moves up to its speed this turn and can attack each adjacent enemy once as it moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Force 1


So Stealth lets him advance against most everything and then he has Parry over duelist (which truthfully, makes more sense to me. One of the Dooku/Tyrannus's allow him to get duelist anyway.

I think he is overcosted at 55, but that's just me. 42 may even be too high, IMO.

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I'd say stealth fits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4
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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:19 pm
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Never mind

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
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I was thinking if we wanted to give him a CE it could be something like this.

Droids are subject to this CE. At the end of this character's turn one allied droid with in 6 squares of this character may move to be adjacent to an enemy within squares of this character and make an immediate attack. After the attack the allied character is defeated.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:55 pm
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I'd rather he didn't have a CE. I think it's cool he can be played with OOM-9.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:21 pm
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With the latest version posted we need to be aware of the Black Sun Vigo interactions with him. He's about on the same level as Assaj Sep Assassin but he's much weaker vs non-Jedi. I think he's fine but I'll try him again just to see.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:05 am
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We can always change Stealth to Cloaked if its a problem.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:15 pm
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Straight comparison with Asajj Assassin

Asajj

43 points

110 HP
20 Def
12 att
20 Dam

Unique
Double
Twin
Loner
Rolling cleave
stealth

force 3
Sith Rage

Grievous

42 points

120 HP
19 Def
10 Att
20 Dam

Unique
Double
Twin
Jedi Hunter
Spinning blades
Stealth
Wall Climber
Parry

Force 1

It's pretty much a wash honestly. Grievous is better vs jedi and swarms of guys and Assaj is better vs non-force users. Assaj has rage and a higher attack. I will say grievous could stand to lose stealth so he is clearly better vs melee and Assaj would be clearly better vs Shooting. Thats all I can think of. I don;t mind a 42 point beatstick having a weakness, if he was higher then that I'd say he could stand to have it, but at 42 He doesn't need it. He beat a ton of jedi singlehandedly. but ran like a little girl from a few clones so it fits.

I'm ready to QC him (-stealth) if anyone else is.

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:15 am
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I can go either way on Stealth.

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urbanjedi
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:23 am
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If we drop stealth can we up his defense to maybe a 21? Or could we just give him sorusu style (evade without the benefits of evade)?

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:29 am
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Personally, I don't have a problem with him getting Evade. I think there should be more synergy and interactions in the game with the different characters, not less. I also don't think a lightsaber style is appropriate for someone like Grievous.

My only reluctance about Evade (or even Soresu) is that the only guaranteed way to hit him is to base with shooters. That's going to be worth a lot more than 42 points on this guy.

Upping his defense is probably the better way to go, IMO.

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Weeks
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:07 am
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So how about 21 defense no stealth and call him done?

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LESHIPPY
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:30 am
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Weeks wrote:
So how about 21 defense no stealth and call him done?

Works for me

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Grand Moff Boris
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:20 am
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QC

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jedispyder
Post subject: Re: General Grievous, Hero of Hypori*Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:25 pm
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QC'd

Quote:
General Grievous, Hero of Hypori
Cost 42

HP 120
DEF 21
ATK +10
DAM 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Cyborg
Melee Attack; Double Attack; Twin Attack
Jedi Hunter [+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings]
Parry [When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]
Spinning Blade Attack [Replaces turn, usable only while this character is at half Hit Points or more: This character can move up to his speed this turn and he can attack each adjacent enemy once as he moves. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.]
Wall Climber [This character ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving as long as a square he occupies and a square he is moving into are adjacent to a wall]

Force Powers
Force 1

"I will grant you a warrior's death. Prepare!"


I slightly updated Spinning Blades to be similar to other abilities.

I would love to fit the whole quote from Grievous as a FT, but I think this fits as well for his character.



surf_rider56
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 10:03:02 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/19/2008
Posts: 1,740
Location: Orange County, CA
I believe I've seen somewhere that the various V-Sets have had different design teams over te last year or two of the V-Sets existance. Have you always kept the same ;lets say dozen or rotated new people for fresh ideas?

I always find it fascinating looking at the process of creating even one piece. When doing it by yourself its relatively fast; even a difficult decision doesn't take more than a day. But more controversial pieces when we did TNLT took days and days, sometimes weeks and dozens of emails flying, not to mention the playtesting; then the cardmaking went another week or two for each piece. It easily took six months and we only did 20 pieces.

So, out of curiosity, how far ahead are stats done? V-Set 5 comes out March 1st. Not counting card designing/printing, when was the whole set finalized?

I hate critiqing other peoples work; unless you're in on the whole thought process behind the why of basic stats, SA's and FP's, it doesn't seem fair to seriously critique it other than giving a general opinion. A group effort shouldn't have to "defend" itself. Solo efforts .... another story
leshippy
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 10:13:31 AM
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surf_rider56 wrote:
I believe I've seen somewhere that the various V-Sets have had different design teams over te last year or two of the V-Sets existance. Have you always kept the same ;lets say dozen or rotated new people for fresh ideas?

I always find it fascinating looking at the process of creating even one piece. When doing it by yourself its relatively fast; even a difficult decision doesn't take more than a day. But more controversial pieces when we did TNLT took days and days, sometimes weeks and dozens of emails flying, not to mention the playtesting; then the cardmaking went another week or two for each piece. It easily took six months and we only did 20 pieces.

So, out of curiosity, how far ahead are stats done? V-Set 5 comes out March 1st. Not counting card designing/printing, when was the whole set finalized?

I hate critiqing other peoples work; unless you're in on the whole thought process behind the why of basic stats, SA's and FP's, it doesn't seem fair to seriously critique it other than giving a general opinion. A group effort shouldn't have to "defend" itself. Solo efforts .... another story


I am not a designer for v-set 5. I am doing 6 and did 4, I did the card design on all of them till 5. Real life told me that I could not continue doing the graphics. I just got an email last week with all the vset 5 stats and they complete. I think there will be some very minor tweaks in wording of SAs and CEs over the next week.

As for a time line. Each design group is different. V-set 6 is Lou, Weeks, Echo, and myself. We were able to complete the set list in about a week. For v-set 4 (Urbanjedi, Dennis, Weeks, and myself) the set list process took about a month. Some of this stuff just depends on how well people can work together and compromise. While many pieces can be done in a few pages of discussion at leat one from vset4 took 12 pages of discussion/arguing :).
surf_rider56
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 10:20:52 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/19/2008
Posts: 1,740
Location: Orange County, CA
leshippy wrote:


I am not a designer for v-set 5. I am doing 6 and did 4, I did the card design on all of them till 5. Real life told me that I could not continue doing the graphics. I just got an email last week with all the vset 5 stats and they complete. I think there will be some very minor tweaks in wording of SAs and CEs over the next week.

As for a time line. Each design group is different. V-set 6 is Lou, Weeks, Echo, and myself. We were able to complete the set list in about a week. For v-set 4 (Urbanjedi, Dennis, Weeks, and myself) the set list process took about a month. Some of this stuff just depends on how well people can work together and compromise. While many pieces can be done in a few pages of discussion at leat one from vset4 took 12 pages of discussion/arguing :).


I understand perfectly about ease of working together/heated debates; On TNLT some pieces took less than 5 pages of discussion, 7 took 17 pages and Celeste Mourne took 28 pages of discussion ( and That was like pulling teeth. One SA could take days and pages to argue through; its fun but I don't recommend it for the weak of heart/spirit.)
AndyHatton
Posted: Thursday, March 7, 2013 5:04:12 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 8/9/2009
Posts: 1,935
I really enjoyed reading these design blurbs, now that V-set 5 is out I was wondering if maybe we could see another for a piece or 2 from there!

(I'm going to be selfish and suggest a few. Luke Skywalker, Galactic Hero. Darth Caedus, Sith Lord. Desann.)
DonStamos
Posted: Friday, March 8, 2013 7:45:51 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 205
That was an awesome read, definitely helped me with strategy for Greivous HoH.

I'll second another one for Caedus, SL.
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