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I was reading last night some Luke info and I thought I'd find out about his duel with Celeste since I have heard several times that Celeste was uber and beat Luke easily. Then I read that it was within the year of Yavin... Luke still had the training wheels on his Lightsaber! *sigh of relief*
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kezzamachine wrote:I was reading last night some Luke info and I thought I'd find out about his duel with Celeste since I have heard several times that Celeste was uber and beat Luke easily. Then I read that it was within the year of Yavin... Luke still had the training wheels on his Lightsaber! *sigh of relief* True but even by ROTJ Celeste would most likely still have won. You have to remember that Celeste would have been trained in the use of Lightsabers since early childhood so would have 10-15 years on Luke in there use. In the years between ANH and ROTJ Luke had very little experience against other trained Jedi/Sith and mainly used it against troops and other non-force users.
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dreadtech wrote:kezzamachine wrote:I was reading last night some Luke info and I thought I'd find out about his duel with Celeste since I have heard several times that Celeste was uber and beat Luke easily. Then I read that it was within the year of Yavin... Luke still had the training wheels on his Lightsaber! *sigh of relief* True but even by ROTJ Celeste would most likely still have won. You have to remember that Celeste would have been trained in the use of Lightsabers since early childhood so would have 10-15 years on Luke in there use. In the years between ANH and ROTJ Luke had very little experience against other trained Jedi/Sith and mainly used it against troops and other non-force users. And yet he defeated Vader. I don't think people give RotJ Luke nearly enough credit. He is an incredibly powerful Jedi even with very little formal training.
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I am not convinced that is true, Vader was fighting hes son, did he really want him dead? I think this greatly depends on how you view the film. Also by this time I think the emperor had decided to replace Vader with Luke if he could turn him. Much the same as Vader replaced Dooku. Was the emperor manipulating the battle from the start. We know he was more than capable of doing so. IMO to many give Luke more credit than he deserves much the same way as many other SW characters do. Also what you mention does not change anything I put in my last post. IMO he was not powerful at all, he just had the potential of becoming so, which is what the emperor saw in him.
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My point was that a lot of Luke's experience in lightsaber fighting was against a powerful Sith Lord. Vader may have been going easy at the start, but his Dun Moch tactics failed and Luke kicked his ass with some Djem So and sliced off his hand. There is no purpose in continuing "going easy" when you won't survive the battle. Luke was a powerful Jedi, I'm not saying he was at the height of his power, but you can't downplay his skill even with little formal training. He was by no means "not powerful at all." The Emperor was always going to replace Vader with Luke if need be, but if Luke died there would always be another apprentice to find and train (Leia for instance.) I don't think the Emperor particularly cared one way or the other who won, in the end he would have the more powerful apprentice; either Luke to mold and shape or Vader who once agains proves his loyalty and skill. It didn't quite work out.
I think many people equate training with power. Trained for 15 years=this powerful. Trained 5 years=only this powerful. Anakin Skywalker trained for less time than a normal Jedi and yet was one of the most powerful members of the Order at the time. Formal training isn't the only thing that matters.
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Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo.
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Mando wrote:Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo. Being part of a prophecy dosen't make you unbeatable/superpowered/godlike. Besides, this isn't about Luke as a Grandmaster I agree he could beat Celeste easily then.
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Mando wrote:Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo. Wasn't that Anakin?
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TimmerB123 wrote:Mando wrote:Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo. Wasn't that Anakin? Wow, I didn't even catch that. Good thinking Tim.
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AndyHatton wrote:My point was that a lot of Luke's experience in lightsaber fighting was against a powerful Sith Lord. Vader may have been going easy at the start, but his Dun Moch tactics failed and Luke kicked his ass with some Djem So and sliced off his hand. There is no purpose in continuing "going easy" when you won't survive the battle. Luke was a powerful Jedi, I'm not saying he was at the height of his power, but you can't downplay his skill even with little formal training. He was by no means "not powerful at all." The Emperor was always going to replace Vader with Luke if need be, but if Luke died there would always be another apprentice to find and train (Leia for instance.) I don't think the Emperor particularly cared one way or the other who won, in the end he would have the more powerful apprentice; either Luke to mold and shape or Vader who once agains proves his loyalty and skill. It didn't quite work out.
I think many people equate training with power. Trained for 15 years=this powerful. Trained 5 years=only this powerful. Anakin Skywalker trained for less time than a normal Jedi and yet was one of the most powerful members of the Order at the time. Formal training isn't the only thing that matters. Dittos. Well said. I will also add something that most people seem to overlook. Luke was holding back as well. He walked in and surrendered. He also showed strength enough to acknowledge the truth about his father. Moreover, he had the strength to recognize the possibility of pulling his father back to the light despite the tremendous danger it posed to himself. He had the strength not to fight or run when his attempt to persuade Vader not to take him to the Emperor failed. Even after Palps succeeded in goading Luke into fighting, something he succeeded at with Anakin years earlier, Luke regained his composure and again held back. At last, when he let loose , he clearly manhandled Vader. The key is this: When Luke decided the fight was inevitable he fought to win. Well, he did win and convincingly. For those arguing that Vader was holding back, perhaps he was. The counterarguent is that once Luke went full throttle Vader was unable to match him. Whether due to Luke's outright superior power or Vader lacking the foresight to see Luke coming it doesn't matter. When it counted, Luke overpowered Vader and won the duel. Luke didn't need more experience or a broader suite of Force power/knowledge.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Mando wrote:Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo. Wasn't that Anakin? "A prophesy that misread could have been" - Yoda It's a popular belief that Luke is actually the Chosen One from the prophesy, not Anakin, and that line from Yoda makes that a real possibility. I think that it makes a lot of sense; did Vader's rise really "bring balance to the Force"?
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My original point was actually that I always thought that Celeste had fought Luke several years after all of this - I had no idea of the timeline whatsoever - and, being a huge Luke fan, had this small cloud of disappointment over my head that Celeste had appeared out of time and whipped Master Luke, but it looks like, if she had of faced uber-Luke, she'd have had little chance.
No trying to take anything away from Celeste!
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Echo24 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Mando wrote:Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo. Wasn't that Anakin? "A prophesy that misread could have been" - Yoda It's a popular belief that Luke is actually the Chosen One from the prophesy, not Anakin, and that line from Yoda makes that a real possibility. I think that it makes a lot of sense; did Vader's rise really "bring balance to the Force"? No, but a "Lucas canon" purist will tell you that Vader killed the last of the Sith.
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corranhorn wrote:Echo24 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Mando wrote:Was Celeste the one that the prophesies foretold would bring balance to the force? No. Was Luke? Yes. Luke is far more powerful in the force than Celeste is. Luke as a Grand Master could beat anyone, imo. Wasn't that Anakin? "A prophesy that misread could have been" - Yoda It's a popular belief that Luke is actually the Chosen One from the prophesy, not Anakin, and that line from Yoda makes that a real possibility. I think that it makes a lot of sense; did Vader's rise really "bring balance to the Force"? No, but a "Lucas canon" purist will tell you that Vader killed the last of the Sith. Well, I've always been of the opinion that it was Anakin, as he did destroy the last Sith, but, while the prequels may not have been great, I am kind of a Lucas canon purist. Star Wars, The Clone Wars 
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You do understand a good amount of stuff in the Clone Wars came from Lucas.
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