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Older sets outdated? Options
Katarn07
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:00:40 PM
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It's my understanding that as this game continued to create new characters, older characters became less valuable in terms of gameplay. Which set do you think made older Uniques and older grunts less playable? I ask because I have hundreds invested into the first few sets and have no intention of finishing the entire line off. I am, however, open to getting select Uniques and a bunch of non-unique followers for the game so long as they're compatible with the Rebels, Imperials, Fringe, and New Republic pieces I have from RS, CS, RotS, UH, and CotF without throwing off the balance of everyone.

Any insight? Thanks!
SignerJ
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:18:50 PM
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What made them less playable? I think that for the Unique Jedi, overcosting and only one attack. This has been slightly remedied by the V-Sets, however.
Echo24
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:30:37 PM
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Your best bet to keeping your old stuff playable would be to find specific characters that boost those old things. The V-sets are pretty good at this. For example, if you want to play a bunch of Stormtroopers, play Darth Vader, Agent of Evil from Renegades & Rogues. If you want to play Clone Troopers, play Null ARC Captain Ordo from Vengeance. While the V-sets are created to be balanced in the current game as a whole, there are specific pieces that really help stuff from the first few sets.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:48:50 AM
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The original intent of the Vset project was to bring balance to the factions as well as prevent the game from becoming static and dying due to a lack of new characters. We've had 5 sets released so far, and it looks like we're pretty close to being able to take any faction to a regional/national win. Republic won GenCon last year, and Old Republic the year before that.

One thing I've always said was that, while parity is important, that concept should not be limited to factions, but also WotC characters vs Vset characters. One thing Billiv said during the creation of the first set was that if a player who hadn't heard of Vsets showed up at a tournament with all WotC pieces, he should still be able to have success running them. We had 2 regional winners run all WotC squads last year, as well as the runner up at GenCon. This year Jason finished in the top 4 of the Pa regional running an all WotC Seperatist build.

There has also been an effort to address RPG and mass battle/scenario interests. While many Vset pieces have been created with the competitive game in mind, not all are intentioned for the tournament circuit.

Does the OP have access to getting the Vsets?
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:04:08 AM
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I don't think it was a particular set that threw off the game so much as the "Greater Mobile Attack" ability.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:42:52 AM
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champions of the force altered a lot with the introduction of the Jedi Weapons Master that was about 8-10 points cheaper than it should have been.

After that many jedi came through which were adjusted to the JWM set point that obselted almost every jedi previous to it (with rare exceptions).

Yodabuck, GOWK and Lancer then pushed the boundaries further, the power of which the Vsets have been trying to emulate since.

Darth_Reignir
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:55:25 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
champions of the force altered a lot with the introduction of the Jedi Weapons Master that was about 8-10 points cheaper than it should have been.

After that many jedi came through which were adjusted to the JWM set point that obselted almost every jedi previous to it (with rare exceptions).

Yodabuck, GOWK and Lancer then pushed the boundaries further, the power of which the Vsets have been trying to emulate since.



+1
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:15:31 AM
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The JWM was a good obsoleting though as before him, the power gap between melee and shooters was so large that most melee units were nothing more than damage sinks.

Another thing to note is that there were a great deal of minis that were bad out of the box, like the Klatoonian Enforcer, Bail Organa, or the Arcona Smuggler. They out numbered the good minis by a rather large ratio and were among the first people stopped using (if ever) when the new sets came out.

For minis that were high-top tier that faded into the mists as new releases came out however, the list is rather small. Most minis that were good in the old sets remain so today. Some may have lost their power, but are still quite feasible.

Katarn07
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:43:59 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
champions of the force altered a lot with the introduction of the Jedi Weapons Master that was about 8-10 points cheaper than it should have been.

After that many jedi came through which were adjusted to the JWM set point that obselted almost every jedi previous to it (with rare exceptions).

Yodabuck, GOWK and Lancer then pushed the boundaries further, the power of which the Vsets have been trying to emulate since.



Interesting. So basically these "less playable" pieces aren't necessarily unplayable, but they are over-costed compared to newer, more powerful pieces? Is that correct? I looked through all the sets. I don't see anything that would be "JWM." What is that?

EDIT - Ah, it's Jedi Weapons Master.
leshippy
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:47:27 AM
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Here is my advice. I have the entire collection and I am always looking for new interesting ways of using what I have. First you have to evaluate what type of games or scenarios that you play. For instance at GenCon this year the organizers have put together tournaments that only RS through TFU are legal. Then another where on The last 6 or so sets from WOTC are legal.

Then you never know what the v-set are going to bring to the table. For a long time Geonisis Drone were not worth playing. Add one v-set character and now they are very playable. Who knows what will come out in the future that will make older pieces playable. Just think if ARC troopers were able to get greater mobile and Twin. Something like that would make them very playable.

With all that I would keep your old stuff.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:51:08 AM
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Katarn07 wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
champions of the force altered a lot with the introduction of the Jedi Weapons Master that was about 8-10 points cheaper than it should have been.

After that many jedi came through which were adjusted to the JWM set point that obselted almost every jedi previous to it (with rare exceptions).

Yodabuck, GOWK and Lancer then pushed the boundaries further, the power of which the Vsets have been trying to emulate since.



Interesting. So basically these "less playable" pieces aren't necessarily unplayable, but they are over-costed compared to newer, more powerful pieces? Is that correct? I looked through all the sets. I don't see anything that would be "JWM." What is that?

EDIT - Ah, it's Jedi War Master.


Jedi Weapon Master actually. And yeah, it's a matter of being overcosted. For example, compare the Jedi Weapon Master to, say, Agen Kolar. Kolar costs 3 more points and does have +30 HP and +1 Attack, but loses Double Attack (which is probably the biggest loss) and Lightsaber Duelist, and has Recovery 20, a pretty bad force power, instead of Lightsaber Sweep, Lightsaber Riposte, and Lightsaber Assault. The JWM is definitely better all around, and costs 3 points less. For those two pieces to be balanced with each other, the JWM should have cost probably 5-6 more points than Kolar, making him 8-9 points undercosted, or Kolar 8-9 points overcosted.
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 5:32:29 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
...or Kolar 8-9 points overcosted.
This, definitely this. Most of the Clone Strike Jedi were almost completely worthless.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:31:27 PM
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Katarn07 wrote:
IWhich set do you think made older Uniques and older grunts less playable


My opinion is that there were a few really amazing pieces from the first 4 sets, that are still good now (eg General Veers, Darth Sidious, R2-D2 Astromech, Grand Admiral Thrawn), but the really big change was between Champions of the Force through to around Legacy of the Force; I think the power level got raised reasonably significantly over this time, then levelled out. Most of the really good pieces from around Legacy of the Force onwards (such as Han Galactic Hero, Captain Rex, Yoda on Kybuck, and Thrawn) are still really good, and there are just more pieces at their level now.

As a microcosm of powercreep, I think a good example is to look at the premier shooters. Clone Strike Aurra Sing from 2004, was the best shooter of her era, but she was replaced in a lot of builds by Boba Fett Bounty Hunter from 2006, who was the best shooter of his era. But Boba was outshone by Captain Rex from 2008, who has some other shooters on his level, but who hasn't really been replaced even 5 years later - he's still a serious consideration as the shooter for every Republic squad.
countrydude82487
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:40:11 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
Katarn07 wrote:
IWhich set do you think made older Uniques and older grunts less playable


My opinion is that there were a few really amazing pieces from the first 4 sets, that are still good now (eg General Veers, Darth Sidious, R2-D2 Astromech, Grand Admiral Thrawn), but the really big change was between Champions of the Force through to around Legacy of the Force; I think the power level got raised reasonably significantly over this time, then levelled out. Most of the really good pieces from around Legacy of the Force onwards (such as Han Galactic Hero, Captain Rex, Yoda on Kybuck, and Thrawn) are still really good, and there are just more pieces at their level now.

As a microcosm of powercreep, I think a good example is to look at the premier shooters. Clone Strike Aurra Sing from 2004, was the best shooter of her era, but she was replaced in a lot of builds by Boba Fett Bounty Hunter from 2006, who was the best shooter of his era. But Boba was outshone by Captain Rex from 2008, who has some other shooters on his level, but who hasn't really been replaced even 5 years later - he's still a serious consideration as the shooter for every Republic squad.


i think this is spot on. The earlier pieces in many cases have been outshined over the years. Thats the way the game progressed. but overall it shows that the vset teams have not actually upped the power near as much in comparison. The4 fact that many of these pieces are still useful and competitive is amazing and shows how they wish to keep the integrity of the game.
Katarn07
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:37:58 AM
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Would any of you consider Rieekan or General Wedge game breaking? They give two very powerful abilities to allies/followers without a range or line of sight! And their costs are pretty low for what they do. I really like the idea of having Evade/Mobile Attack on every piece in my squad, but it might make our games become unbalanced. I would think a simple house rule of LOS or range of 6 would work to make them a bit less powerful but still desirable.

What are your thoughts?
leshippy
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:45:22 AM
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Katarn07 wrote:
Would any of you consider Rieekan or General Wedge game breaking? They give two very powerful abilities to allies/followers without a range or line of sight! And their costs are pretty low for what they do. I really like the idea of having Evade/Mobile Attack on every piece in my squad, but it might make our games become unbalanced. I would think a simple house rule of LOS or range of 6 would work to make them a bit less powerful but still desirable.

What are your thoughts?


Not over powering with the amount of Disruption and Advanced Battle Meditation. Yes they are good to piece to build around.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:52:44 AM
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Katarn07 wrote:
Would any of you consider Rieekan or General Wedge game breaking? They give two very powerful abilities to allies/followers without a range or line of sight! And their costs are pretty low for what they do. I really like the idea of having Evade/Mobile Attack on every piece in my squad, but it might make our games become unbalanced. I would think a simple house rule of LOS or range of 6 would work to make them a bit less powerful but still desirable.

What are your thoughts?


Rieekan moreso than Wedge, mostly because his CE is for allies instead of followers and he's much cheaper. NR squads are usually a little more hard for points than Rebel squads anyway, and some of their best pieces are commanders (like the new Luke GH). NR also has a good bit of Stealth on important pieces (Mara Jade Jedi, Ganner Rhysode), which makes Evade less significant.

Rieekan is definitely one of the top 10 pieces in the whole game in my opinion. It's definitely not "game breaking", though; you don't HAVE to play Rieekan to do well, nor do you have to play a counter to Rieekan. Lots of counters do exist, though, but they're also counters to lots of other things; a squad will almost always benefit from having access to Disruptive, Distraction, or ABM.

So Rieekan is definitely one of the most powerful pieces in the game, but doesn't break it. In fact, even with him (and General Dodonna, another one of the most powerful pieces in the game), Rebels are probably the very least competitive faction right now; at best they're tied with Vong as the worst.
Darthbane53
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:59:28 AM
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Katarn07 wrote:
Would any of you consider Rieekan or General Wedge game breaking? They give two very powerful abilities to allies/followers without a range or line of sight! And their costs are pretty low for what they do. I really like the idea of having Evade/Mobile Attack on every piece in my squad, but it might make our games become unbalanced. I would think a simple house rule of LOS or range of 6 would work to make them a bit less powerful but still desirable.

What are your thoughts?


For me they aren't over powered (and I exclusivly play house games because im the ONLY player in florida) but they are VERY strong and VERY annoying. They are so good often its hard to not take them in a squad, but because my play group consists of 3 people, when one of picks a character we like and uses him in more than 2 battles it gets stale. So I try to avoid him more on the repetitive POV. Its only so fun facing the same squad, or same squad idea a few times.
markedman247
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 7:23:31 AM
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DB53: not the only in FL. I reside in Miami. :)
Cassus fett
Posted: Thursday, May 23, 2013 7:31:03 AM
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I'm going to say COtF not just because of JWM. This was the set that raised the bar and power levels on almost everyone. Just look at ROtS Mace windu compared to General Windu, It added the JWM one of the best peices for his cost as well as an almost auto inclusion in Republic squads, it gave us Super Stealth on republic (which only Vong had before) along with the best peices to expliot it the Republic commandos AND it gave us the two most expenisve peices as well as best (at the time) Darth Bane and Exar Kun. This is also around the time everyone started geting force renewal (Which I personally like). After that crazy boost the following sets had to keep up, and keep upping the anti and the older sets were rendered obselete bar a few exceptions Darth Vader Jedi Hunter, CS Yoda, At-Rts, Thrawn to name a few.
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