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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010 Posts: 564
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Lets try and keep this as civil as possible, would love to hear discussion on SHNN on the subject. It's a topic that I would love to hear all current competitive players opinions, as to why it's either a good idea, or a bad idea.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 8,428
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I think nerfing pieces through silver bullets is a far better idea than banning pieces. A low-cost Fringe reinforcement that nullifies or greatly blunts a seemingly overpowered piece (by name, even) would bring it back to earth very quickly.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/30/2008 Posts: 2,093
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Def an interesting topic, but how would one go about picking which pieces to ban? Since there doesn't seem to be any one squad or piece dominating the meta, I don't see the reason to ban a piece.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 3/14/2009 Posts: 1,728
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urbanjedi wrote:Def an interesting topic, but how would one go about picking which pieces to ban? Since there doesn't seem to be any one squad or piece dominating the meta, I don't see the reason to ban a piece. Given that this comes up fairly often, I'd guess it's more generalised anger at the Vsets than specific complaints.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010 Posts: 564
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No anger at the Vsets, at least not on my part.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 3/14/2009 Posts: 1,728
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theultrastar wrote:No anger at the Vsets, at least not on my part. Fair enough. What pieces do you want to ban?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/3/2010 Posts: 354
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I think a less drastic approach to problem pieces is revising them rather than banning them.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 9/16/2008 Posts: 2,302
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The game designers have always (pre and post v-set) gone to great legnths to not band or modify pieces. This game exists because the cards contain the rules. If you start changing that fact, it quickly becomes impossible to manage. We already depends heavily on the the glossary as is, i think further altering that will render the game unstable.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 8,428
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adamb0nd wrote:The game designers have always (pre and post v-set) gone to great legnths to not band or modify pieces. This game exists because the cards contain the rules. If you start changing that fact, it quickly becomes impossible to manage. We already depends heavily on the the glossary as is, i think further altering that will render the game unstable. +10 Errata/revising needs to be limited to typos and common sense stuff that everyone was already doing anyway.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/3/2010 Posts: 354
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FlyingArrow wrote:adamb0nd wrote:The game designers have always (pre and post v-set) gone to great legnths to not band or modify pieces. This game exists because the cards contain the rules. If you start changing that fact, it quickly becomes impossible to manage. We already depends heavily on the the glossary as is, i think further altering that will render the game unstable. +10 Errata/revising needs to be limited to typos and common sense stuff that everyone was already doing anyway. If this is the case, then yes, I think banning pieces is an unfortunate, yet viable option.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/14/2008 Posts: 2,063
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Another regional ends and this topic reappears. Coincidence?
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 1/30/2009 Posts: 6,457 Location: Southern Illinois
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I have faith in the designers' ability to find imaginative counters to problematic elements in the game.
They have done quite well with this so far, IMO.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 9/16/2008 Posts: 2,302
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Darth_Reignir wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:adamb0nd wrote:The game designers have always (pre and post v-set) gone to great legnths to not band or modify pieces. This game exists because the cards contain the rules. If you start changing that fact, it quickly becomes impossible to manage. We already depends heavily on the the glossary as is, i think further altering that will render the game unstable. +10 Errata/revising needs to be limited to typos and common sense stuff that everyone was already doing anyway. If this is the case, then yes, I think banning pieces is an unfortunate, yet viable option. I think that the better option is to continue to develop pieces that help keep issues in check. For example, GAWK was originally banned from play. But, thanks to various autodamage effects, SSM was eventually reduced in usefulness to the point that he was allowed back in. I think that this should be the goal of the v-sets, to continue to create balance in the force. That being said, if a piece truly is broken, i'd say banning it is a better option then nerfing it, as it creates confusion... the cards really are what allow the game to be played, and modifying the text on these is a bad idea. I have yet to find a single piece that even a majority claims is broken. Yes, gha n., mice, bastilla, poggle, and windu are all very powerful, but its not the majority who says they are broken. There will always be players who think a piece needs to be banned, or an ability errate'd. Every time a set was released by WOTC, there were those who claimed the sky was falling. But if you look at history; is Thrawn broken? Is Boba Bounty Hunter Broken? GGDAC? Lancers? Not by today's standards. They're good, but people aren't shaking their fists at the SWM heavens over them anymore. The game evolved, and i think the pieces people have problems with now will resolved with each additional set. That is the nature of any competitive game. People are going to find combos that are brutal, and then the game designers counter it so that life can go on.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 3/14/2009 Posts: 1,728
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Poggle is the only piece I'd consider undoubtedly broken, and he rarely sees play competitively AFAIK.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010 Posts: 564
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I was on the fence about this issue for a long time. I've talked with a lot of gamers about this very issue. I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. I'll post a few of my personal thoughts, you don't have to agree, or whatever. This is just where I'm coming from.
I've been involved with Vsets for a long time, playtesting, playtesting committee. I talk with a large portion of the designers on a daily basis, so I know the ins and outs of the designing process. I know the brick wall they run into, by having to design around certain pieces. Such as Imps with Thrawn. You HAVE to design around him. 32 points, Master Tact, Boardwide swap when you Include Mas. Each faction has cornerstone pieces like this. How great would it be, to say, well he has had his run, lets ban him from competitive play. That opens up so many fresh and exciting possibilities. Which is something the game needs at this point. Now all of a sudden as a designer you are freed up to make a lot more for the Imperial Faction, a couple sets later you can even make a new Thrawn, (I'm a big fan of the character loved the Thrawn Trilogy) and as a player banning pieces stimulates new squad ideas.
I'm not bringing this up to get any one piece out of the game, or anything like that, or to complain at the Vset Designers, I think they have done a wonderful job. I'm a pro Vset guy. Don't believe me, ask any number of the designers, I do anything I can to make their job easier.
It's getting to the point in the game where 3 point wins are not so common anymore. As a designer they are faced with "Do we hand out more ways to ignore abilities like Parry/Makashi/Evade/Soresu/Stealth etc, via Overwhelming Power/Force, Brutal Strike, Supressive Fire, and hear people complain about us handing that out like candy, and continue this power creep in the game (I can't think of any one gamer who enjoys these abilities because everyone wants to be able to have a chance to protect their pieces), or do we start to let these power house pieces have their run in the game and then cycle them out. Tournament play is very much an aspect I think about and look at with this topic.
Anyways these are just some of my thoughts on the subject.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/19/2012 Posts: 241 Location: Lost in the Unknown Regions with 20 Ewoks
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FlyingArrow wrote:I think nerfing pieces through silver bullets is a far better idea than banning pieces. A low-cost Fringe reinforcement that nullifies or greatly blunts a seemingly overpowered piece (by name, even) would bring it back to earth very quickly. I agree there are soooo many things you can do with existing SA to take down other "broken" pieces.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/23/2009 Posts: 1,195
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I can't see banning anything (for me and the people I play with at least). Pieces aren't really all that strong by themselves, the big part is squad synergy. Mace is strong, very strong even. But he isn't over the top awesome sauce unless he's getting a boost from GOWK or a Damage pump from General Skywalker. You can apply that to most things. Team synergy is what makes pieces appear better than they are. Once you start considering synergy some really good ways to shut them down are Disruptive to counter CE's, Ysalamiri to counter force powers, and silver bullets (Dr E > SSM).
And for your Thrawn argument I'll just say this
Imperials:Thrawn/Mas sometimes Pelleaon Rebels:Dodonna NR:Dodonna/Ganner Vong:Yommask Sith:Jaq Old Republic: Bastilla Republic: Doombot Seps: GGDAC/Whorm Fringe: Lobot
Wouldn't you almost always play those factions with those pieces? Sure you can get away with not doing it. But using those pieces makes every single team in those factions better.
SOME PIECES ARE JUST GOOD AND THAT'S OKAY.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/26/2010 Posts: 1,390 Location: Florida
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In a word, with out reading anything. No. If you don't like a piece don't play with it.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
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Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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Here's the thing, banning is only necessary if there is a problem. Banning is not a solution for design. If the power pieces are a detriment to a designer, then they are frankly an uncreative designer. Sadly, I think there is a bit of a lack of creativity in design, with too much focus on the top tier stuff. Less powerful, but more focused on the lesser tiers, are great options.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/31/2010 Posts: 1,628
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for what its worth here is my opinion: 1. If, as a communitty, we were going to ban pieces it should have been done before Destiny of the Force. 2. It is now to far into the design aspect of the v-sets to ban pieces, designers and playtesters have spent entirely to much time making sure that everything works well now, if we ban thrawn the imps suck, why because everything has been designed with his swap and damage/attack boosts in mind. 3. Banning pieces at this point will only lead to other pieces filling in the gaps. Look at the sith faction get rid of act control/movement breakers and everyone else have fun, huge beats with access to illusion and a ton of force points that you have to come fight now....yay. 4. I was for banning pieces at a certain point make no mistake, but after being involved with set 6 playtesting and realizing that hey nothing is truly broken, I think it would be harder to get people to agree on what to ban then it would be to get people to agree to make a piece that fixes the piece you want to ban.
So I did not place a vote because I was for it, but not so much anymore....
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