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Since SD debuted in Rebel Storm, more pieces gained access to it. Whether via CE or special abilities, these abilities have grown and spread throughout most factions.
With the growth if this ability, should a hard counter (ie Special Ability) be employed?
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Yes.
Or... maybe a soft counter.
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I'm a casual player, so I don't really see the tactics employed by what goes on in the tournaments - is SD really such a big deal? Enough to warrant counter measures against it?
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Darth_Reignir wrote:I'm a casual player, so I don't really see the tactics employed by what goes on in the tournaments - is SD really such a big deal? Enough to warrant counter measures against it? It's one of the few things without a counter. Attacks can be defended in various ways. Force powers can be absorbed or just play Vong. Most 'direct' damage has a save associated with it. Force points and Mettle are your friend there. There are only a handful of SAs with guaranteed damage, and of those, self-destruct is the only one where you can put out massive damage by swarming with either Nom/Poggle bombs or with Klatooinians/Kel Dor. (Nom/Poggle bombs are via CE, so they already have hard counters in place.) Flamethrower, Proximity Mines, Pulse Cannon are useful, but you aren't likely to base a whole squad on those abilities. I may have missed a couple others that have guaranteed damage. Anyway, for a counter I'd vote for a Fringe reinforcement option that has very low Def but a decent number of HP, and removed Self Destruct from enemies with X squares. Maybe 3 squares. Anti-Terrorism Droid Cost: 10 HP: 60 Def: 13 Atk: 0 Dmg: 0 Defuse: Enemies within 3 squares that have Self-Destruct lose Self-Destruct. Obviously, range, cost, stats would need playtesting. The idea is not to hand a Self-Destruct squad an auto-loss, but to make it so that a pure Self-Destruct squad needs to consider other elements, too. You're right, though. SD isn't tearing up the tournament scene, so this isn't a super-pressing need. It's just a matter of something have no counter available at all.
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Wouldn't force bubble be able to reduce the damage by 20 at least?
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I brought it up due to the uptick in SD. Poggle Bombs and Klat-sassins have entered the fray. I'm just curious. I haven't played in a while but saw the surge. I know SD was increased to get by the Soresu wall and to make lesser pieces useful (Poggle).
I have no opinion one way or another. I'm just asking the question.
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CorranHornsux123 wrote:Wouldn't force bubble be able to reduce the damage by 20 at least? Good point. As would the armors/shields/damage reduction.
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I treat SD just like I do any annoying abilities, as a non-threat. I used to have an issue with Cortosis Gauntlets getting me repeatedly, and now I just take the characters out when I have the advantage of dealing with it when it is convenient for me. I.E I usually just shoot them to death, or force them into hallways where they would lose a super stealth bonus anyways.
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sounds like a jerk move to me :p lol jk
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The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked.
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Maybe it's a good thing to have something where you can't counter it. I think that taking the auto damage of self destruct away would take away the point of having that ability too. It would also ruin a few squads out there.
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Sithborg wrote:The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked. Force Repulse, Lightsaber throws and attacks ignoring cover, Malgus all come to mind.
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I think SD is fine, as a game mechanic...but combining it with Cloaked was (IMHO) a very risky design decision...especially when the piece in question (Klat Assassin) was already good at 12pts without SD. Regardless, Klat Assassin squads (often with Deathshots, or else maybe Twin) are a meta contender, and therefore we now have another squad-type to consider in meta-analysis. These pieces/squads are solid, and are going to be around for a while.
And like all things that look too powerful at first, there -is- a way around them...we just need to spend time learning new tactics and builds to counter them. Just like we had to do with old school B&B, Double-Lancer, Rebel Cannons, etc. There is always a counter. I'm not sure that Klat Assassins are quite at the level of the old gatekeepers though. They're good, but I wouldn't consider them a gatekeeper.
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Well, that settles that. I think a new Mission Vao with "Diffuse" (This character suppresses special abilities whose name contains "Self-Distruct" on adjacent enemies.) as a Fringe character just to have something of a character option.
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Darth_Jim wrote:Sithborg wrote:The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked. Force Repulse, Lightsaber throws and attacks ignoring cover, Malgus all come to mind. The problem is that none of these options for getting around cloaked are available readily for every faction. Vong have to take the SD 20 every time. I wish there were more ways to get around cloaked. Maybe in the future we could have a new force power like Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round) I would like to see the Vong get melee reach 2 but not be able to count as adjacent when they use melee reach 2. Maybe a new SA like Amphistaff Shaper (Vong characters can attack enemy characters 2 squares away. This does not count as being adjacent)
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Mando wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:Sithborg wrote:The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked. Force Repulse, Lightsaber throws and attacks ignoring cover, Malgus all come to mind. The problem is that none of these options for getting around cloaked are available readily for every faction. Vong have to take the SD 20 every time. I wish there were more ways to get around cloaked. Maybe in the future we could have a new force power like Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round) I would like to see the Vong get melee reach 2 but not be able to count as adjacent when they use melee reach 2. Maybe a new SA like Amphistaff Shaper (Vong characters can attack enemy characters 2 squares away. This does not count as being adjacent) well, then people would be able to evade their attacks and you would be trading one problem for another.
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Mando wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:Sithborg wrote:The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked. Force Repulse, Lightsaber throws and attacks ignoring cover, Malgus all come to mind. The problem is that none of these options for getting around cloaked are available readily for every faction. Vong have to take the SD 20 every time. I wish there were more ways to get around cloaked. Maybe in the future we could have a new force power like Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round) I would like to see the Vong get melee reach 2 but not be able to count as adjacent when they use melee reach 2. Maybe a new SA like Amphistaff Shaper (Vong characters can attack enemy characters 2 squares away. This does not count as being adjacent) Or, maybe, have a SA that specifically nerfs Cloaked, but leaves Stealth alone? That way, both Stealth and Cloaked can be nerfed, but only specifically. For example, we have It's a Trap! for Stealth. Why not something like that for Cloaked?
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Mando wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:Sithborg wrote:The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked. Force Repulse, Lightsaber throws and attacks ignoring cover, Malgus all come to mind. The problem is that none of these options for getting around cloaked are available readily for every faction. Vong have to take the SD 20 every time. I wish there were more ways to get around cloaked. Maybe in the future we could have a new force power like Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round) I would like to see the Vong get melee reach 2 but not be able to count as adjacent when they use melee reach 2. Maybe a new SA like Amphistaff Shaper (Vong characters can attack enemy characters 2 squares away. This does not count as being adjacent) Actually a Nom Bomb squad would be a strong counter to a Klat Assassin squad. They can't shoot you're workers because of SS and you can go in and spit poison (assuming its a Yomin Carr variant) and then set off the bomb the next round via MTB. Trading 4 point pieces for 12 point pieces is a no brainier. Not to mention you should out activate. Actually if its a deathshot Klat squad you can copy Mon Mothmas CE and blow up via MTB or being defeated and then have a makable deathshot attack on the extreme low defense of the klat.
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SignerJ wrote:Mando wrote:Darth_Jim wrote:Sithborg wrote:The counter to Self Destruct is to not be adjacent. Before you bring up the Cloaked combo, there are plenty of abilities that get around Cloaked. Force Repulse, Lightsaber throws and attacks ignoring cover, Malgus all come to mind. The problem is that none of these options for getting around cloaked are available readily for every faction. Vong have to take the SD 20 every time. I wish there were more ways to get around cloaked. Maybe in the future we could have a new force power like Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round) I would like to see the Vong get melee reach 2 but not be able to count as adjacent when they use melee reach 2. Maybe a new SA like Amphistaff Shaper (Vong characters can attack enemy characters 2 squares away. This does not count as being adjacent) Or, maybe, have a SA that specifically nerfs Cloaked, but leaves Stealth alone? That way, both Stealth and Cloaked can be nerfed, but only specifically. For example, we have It's a Trap! for Stealth. Why not something like that for Cloaked? I am firmly against having a SA that would nerf cloaked or SD. Isn't the whole point of cloaked and SD that there something really hard to counter? Having a new SA to counter either would ruin a good deal of pieces and take away the effectiveness of both.
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These ignore cover:
Saber Dart (Fringe)
Bombad General (Gungans)
Fire Support Mission (Imps, Mandos)
Verpine Shatter Rifle (Rep/Mandos)
Hat Toss (Fringe)
Zenji Needle (Fringe)
Sensors (Sith)
Sith General's CE (vs Force users)
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