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Vassal Championship! More news to follow... Options
kezzamachine
Posted: Saturday, July 6, 2013 4:46:40 PM
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Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
I'm sure something rather official will come soon, but I wanted to be the first to offer my congrats to the new Vassal Regional Champ: Tim from NZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms

Mauri ora, mauri mate! Tino pai e hoa!
AndyHatton
Posted: Sunday, July 7, 2013 4:12:00 PM
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Any other update on this?
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, July 7, 2013 4:23:58 PM
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It's all on Gamers - sounds like Tim with http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/127130/another-mando-squad beat Matt Spry with something like this http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/127002/presenting---the-now-not-so-crappy-old--kyle-katarn- but with Jagged Fel instead of Gha Nachkt, in the final.
Weeks
Posted: Sunday, July 7, 2013 5:13:22 PM
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The more I learn about New Zealand the less I understand.

Congrats to the champ! Mandos ftw!
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, July 7, 2013 5:49:24 PM
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Before Europeans got to New Zealand (they discovered it in the 1600s, but didn't really arrive en masse until around 1800), our native people (tangata whenua) were the Maori, from Polynesia.

The haka Kamate Kamate is performed by many New Zealand sports teams before international games. It was composed by Maori chief Te Rauparaha around 1820 as a celebration of life over death after his lucky escape from enemies. He hid from them in a food-storage pit.

Our national sport is rugby, and our rugby team does a haka before every game. I think rugby is also Wales national sport, but we're better at it than they are (the last time they beat us was in 1963....). Here's a good video of New Zealand being awesome at rugby: https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1581307346782
Darth O
Posted: Sunday, July 7, 2013 9:02:21 PM
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Location: New Zealand ( kind of by Australia)
TheHutts wrote:
Before Europeans got to New Zealand (they discovered it in the 1600s, but didn't really arrive en masse until around 1800), our native people (tangata whenua) were the Maori, from Polynesia.

The haka Kamate Kamate is performed by many New Zealand sports teams before international games. It was composed by Maori chief Te Rauparaha around 1820 as a celebration of life over death after his lucky escape from enemies. He hid from them in a food-storage pit.

Our national sport is rugby, and our rugby team does a haka before every game. I think rugby is also Wales national sport, but we're better at it than they are (the last time they beat us was in 1963....). Here's a good video of New Zealand being awesome at rugby: https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1581307346782


This is now one of my favourite forum posts.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 10:02:23 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
It's all on Gamers - sounds like Tim with http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/127130/another-mando-squad beat Matt Spry with something like this http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/127002/presenting---the-now-not-so-crappy-old--kyle-katarn- but with Jagged Fel instead of Gha Nachkt, in the final.



just to open this up to more people so people are aware of it.

There was ruling that was wrong at this regional and it is pretty huge. when jan ors dies kyle keeps everything he gained from camaraderie. I heard that it was ruled that when she dies he loses opportunist, double, and distraction, but the real ruling is that camaraderie lasts then entire game, does not matter if the person giving it out dies or not.


http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12711

link to ruling.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 10:03:05 AM
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but congrats to the winner, sounds like it was a lot of fun.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 10:16:43 AM
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I guess that explains the small hubaloo over my ruling, I guess.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 10:21:38 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
I guess that explains the small hubaloo over my ruling, I guess.



maybe but I thought people should be more aware of this so that people get the ruling correct and can plan on how to proceed with their squads either using a piece with camaraderie or playing against someone using camaraderie.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 8:08:02 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:

There was ruling that was wrong at this regional and it is pretty huge.


Was it a ruling? My impression was both players didn't know and it didn't come up until afterward. Not quite the same.

A similar thing happened in the Atlanta Regional finals where both players incorrectly thought could not LS throw into a force bubble (but you can!) That might have changed that regional result as well, but nothing can be done after the fact.

It's on both players to know how an ability works. If they both play it wrong and neither sincerely knows it - that's just the breaks.

It's a bit more unfortunate when a judge makes an incorrect ruling, but it happens. Judges are human. Heck I have made an incorrect call in the past as a judge. Unfortunately, thems the breaks as well.

I just don't want the judge getting a bad rap if it was both players' (and not the judge's) mistake.

I agree that we should make sure everyone knows that camaraderie stays the whole match.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 8:25:06 PM
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Mistakes happen. Even I can make mistakes.
Minitank HT
Posted: Monday, July 8, 2013 9:45:36 PM
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At the time both players beleived quite whole-heartedly that camraderie stopped after jan ors died, and the possibility that it might not didn't actually come up. Also, 3 other people including thereisnotry (who was judging) were watching the game, none of whom had any concern with that outcome. There was no ruling made, rather an assumption from all parties which we found to be wrong a while after the game had ended
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 8:21:25 AM
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Minitank HT wrote:
At the time both players beleived quite whole-heartedly that camraderie stopped after jan ors died, and the possibility that it might not didn't actually come up. Also, 3 other people including thereisnotry (who was judging) were watching the game, none of whom had any concern with that outcome. There was no ruling made, rather an assumption from all parties which we found to be wrong a while after the game had ended



yeah I guess ruling is not the right word, it should of been just that it was played wrong and I just wanted to bring it to light so that everyone can proceed correctly from here, was not trying to be mean or harsh or anything...
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:06:30 AM
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It totally happens. Juts to be clear I wasn't trying to be negative towards anyone, I just didn't want Trevor to be blamed for something that was not his fault. I have no doubt that if either player would have brought it up to the judge, since it was a final on vassal, Trevor would have looked it up to verify, just to be sure. But since everyone involved seemed to agree, nothing needed to be looked up.

Anyway - this is good to know for the future. Know your squad and all it's interactions (lesson for me too! I won a regional with very nearly the same squad in question, and I didn't know this ruling!). Also - if there is a potentially tricky ruling concerning your squad - print out the ruling, or bookmark it on your phone - so if it gets brought up, it can easily be found and shown to an opponent or judge. Even better - discuss with the judge at the beginning of a tournament how it will be ruled, so you're on the same page. It might even be good for judges to announce how such interactions will be rules to everyone, so that every player simply knows.

We have such a myriad of rules now - it's very hard to have them all perfect. But everything runs much smoother when something is known up front.



On a different note, congrats to Minitank! Nice work sniping Juno, it sounds like you played it really well.
thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 6:45:09 AM
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No negativity taken. :)

Yeah, I was Judging for this event (though for this tournament it was more like Facilitating, since no rules questions or stalling situations came up). Minitank HT is right: none of the 3 of us thought that Camaraderie continued after Jan's death. This is just one of those things: nobody had a clue about this wierd (IMHO) rule at the time, but now everybody knows. It's just too bad it had to come via a Finals match.

Here's how it happened during the game:
-Minitank saw an opportunity to move Kelborn into position to snipe Spry's Jan Ors...this move left Kelborn exposed, but if Jan died then Kyle wouldn't be able to put significant damage on Kelborn (or so it was thought), and so it was a worthwhile risk.
-Kelborn killed Jan, after which Spry said, "Well, that's game" but they kept on playing. On Kyle's activation he moved up and killed a DW Saboteur, rather than putting 10dmg on Kelborn (could've been 80 if we were aware of how Camaraderie is supposed to work).
-Later Spry levitated Luke up to do a LS Throw with ASM that hit Kelborn, a Scout, and the Scientist. It was an excellent move, but Luke later died for his heroism.

Now, if Minitank had known that Kyle kept his boosts even after Jan's death, then I can almost guarantee that Minitank wouldn't have exposed Kelborn as he did. I played Mandos myself that day, and I know I would never have done it. And if Spry had known that Kyle was still powerful, I'm pretty sure he would've put the 80dmg (+ maybe a crit?!) on Kelborn, which would've forced Minitank to play far less aggressively with his squad (especially Kelborn, who was happy to eat 40dmg from Luke's LS Throw, since he still had 50hp left). And furthermore, all of this was in the first round (Jan never even got to activate), so it set the tone and pace for the rest of the game. Because Spry knew he had already almost surely lost the game, he was willing to throw Luke out there for an effective and yet risky LS Throw...if he knew that Kyle was still strong, I can almost guarantee he wouldn't have done that either.

And so you can see that the entire match was played from, and shaped by, the understanding that Camaraderie bonuses disappear after the granting character's death.

I'd be curious how the match would've gone if both players had known what we know now. I (playing Mandos) had beaten Spry earlier in the day (on his map), but I had more cloaked pieces and never left my main pieces adjacent to each other for a good LS Throw. Minitank had more non-cloaked pieces than I did (Scientist, Fenn Shysa), but he was very good at preventing LOS to them, so I'm not sure that Kyle would've been able to target them all that easily...not without exposing himself to a heavy counter-strike.

Regardless, it was a great day of SWM and everyone had fun.

I feel badly that our communal misunderstanding of the rules changed the course of events, but I think this is just one of those things where we need to communicate better as a community. If the 3 of us--who are all very active and competitive SWM players--could miss this ruling, then perhaps it wasn't communicated clearly. Camaraderie found its debut in V-Set 4, and yet I never recalled reading any sort of heads-up or FYI or discussion about how Camaraderie functioned; it's a big change to the game, and it would've been good to make a General Forums discussion about it when it was first released. Oh well, live and learn. I'll have to think about playing a Luke/Kyle/Jan squad in the future.
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