Together with the vset 6 design piece, here is an example of the to and fro of design and playtest.
First the design comments
Darth Maul, Deathwatch overlord
around 60
Hp 120
D 21
Attack 15
dmg 20
unique
Melee attack, double attack, twin attack, Deadly attack
Teras Kasi Style (Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10)
lightsaber Duelist
Force 2 FR 1
Sith rage 1
lightsaber riposte
Force grip 2
Deflect
Assault
Commander effect
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress or Death Watch may be in your squad regardless of faction.
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress or Death Watch gain +4 attack while within 6 squares of this character.
Fairly straight forward. Double twin cos he dual wielded, generally a good fighter so he has deadly (juyo), duelist, riposte and teras kasi. Bit of ranged d cos he'll most likely be powerful
Brings in deathwatch and savage and gives them a standard attack boost.
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The_Celestial_Warrior Darth Maul no longer dual-wielded at this time, that was left to his brother, and Obi kinda cut his lightsaber in half.
Does cyborg do anything anymore? I don't really think he needs it as they made him much more human than he started off, but half of his body was cybernetic and I'm kind of wondering how the community would react?
Grip is good, there was lots of force choking going on in the episodes, but almost seems too straight forward to me, can't put my finger on it.
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fingersandteethHe dual wielded the darksaber as well as his own against Sideous in the last fight, that's where i pulled that from.
He had his huge cyborg legs replaced by the mando's and so i opted not for cyborg because his new mechanical legs look pretty normal.
He's a pretty vanilla beat which might be why he looks bland. No real tricks; he's certainly not a Cadeus or Revan of the faction.
The idea is a squad of him with Deathwatch so the deathwatch can bring in holosid and get rerolls with boosted attack.
If you bring in pre then they will SD also.
Maul himself is a nice protector for them with twin riposte and assault. He's also pretty survivable but other than bringing deathwatch to the sith he is pretty unspectacular.
The 2nd part of his CE is totally open (as is most of this i guess) so but this is a start point.
I considered giving him more of a boost to Savage like letting savage use his force powers (gains assault) or perhaps some cameraderi to give Savage double but Savage has 30 dmg and the step up in power is large so i opted against it.
He could be cheaper and lose the twin, get MotF2 and be more of a wizard than a beat. He seemed to have a better command of the force by the late clone wars.
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fingersandteeth took away double and boost savage
Quote:
45
Hp 120
D 21
Attack 15
dmg 20
unique
Melee attack, twin attack, Deadly attack
Teras Kasi Style (Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10)
lightsaber Duelist
Force 2 FR 1
Sith rage 1
lightsaber riposte
Force grip 2
Assault
Deflect
Commander effect
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress or Death Watch may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Once per turn a character named Savage Oppress may use this characters force powers as if it were his own
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LESHIPPY I dig the piece.
I will throw this out there.
Rapport [Black Sun or Pirates cost one less in this squad]
and now I will shut up
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The_Celestial_Warrior LESHIPPY wrote:
I dig the piece.
I will throw this out there.
Rapport [Black Sun or Pirates cost one less in this squad]
and now I will shut up
I concur with 2/3 of this message :D
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The_Celestial_Warrior Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:14 am
Posts: 4212
Quote:
RCM: Darth Maul, CotS
45
Hp 120
D 21
Attack 15
dmg 20
unique
Melee attack, twin attack, Deadly attack
Lightsaber Duelist
Rapport (Black Sun or Pirate characters cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Teras Kasi Style (Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10)
Force 2 FR 1
Sith rage 1
lightsaber riposte
Assault
Commander effect
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress or Death Watch may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Once per turn, this character and a character named Savage Oppress may use the other characters force powers as if it were his own
Hrrrmmm, added the Rapport and was taking off Force Powers. To reduce space, I was going to make the CE useable by both of them. It, however, occurred to me that Force Renewal is a Force Power, technically, which I'm not sure we want Savage getting that without being Savage?
Added the RCM.
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urbanjedi Savage can already get FR with a nightsister mother.
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Sithborg I really, really am not a fan of the "once per turn, use a Force Power" wording.
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urbanjedi This would lead to 4 pt Human Blaster for Hire with the rapport. Not sure if I am a fan of that. But maybe.
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fingersandteeth Sithborg wrote:
I really, really am not a fan of the "once per turn, use a Force Power" wording.
why?
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fingersandteeth Post subject: Re: Darth Maul, Deathwatch overlord
Quote:
RCM: Darth Maul, CotS
45
Hp 120
D 21
Attack 15
dmg 20
unique
Melee attack, twin attack, Deadly attack
Rapport (Black Sun or Pirate characters cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Teras Kasi Style (Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10)
Force Bond (a character named Savage Oppress gains lightsaber assault)
Force 2 FR 1
Sith rage 1
lightsaber riposte
lightsaber Assault
Force grip 2
Deflect
Commander effect
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress or Death Watch may be in your squad regardless of faction.
ok, removed the offending CE and just added force bond so he makes Savage a beast.
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fingersandteeth The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
RCM: Darth Maul, CotS
45
Hp 110
D 20
Attack 14
dmg 20
unique
Melee attack, Twin attack, Deadly attack
Affinity (This character may be in a Mandalorian squad)
Rapport (Black Sun or Pirate characters cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Teras-kasi style (Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10)
Force 2 Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked)
Lightsaber Assault (Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks)
Sith Rage 1 (Force 1: +10 Damage on all attacks this turn)
Commander effect
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares gain +4 attack +10 damage.
This is a twist on the theme we've been kicking around. Maul becomes an interesting tool for the mando's rather than mando's being in sith. You could then run Him with Kelborn, scouts, cio and seath watch sabs. He'd get kelborn movement being a mando (savage wouldn't). Perhaps Maul, Kelborn, captain and death watch sabs.
Maul, kelborn, Pre Visla, death watch sabs.
Maul savage and protectors.
lots of squad options. Basically giving some beef to the Mandos rather than to the sith.
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The_Celestial_Warrior fingersandteeth wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
RCM: Darth Maul, CotS
45
Hp 110
D 20
Attack 14
dmg 20
unique
Melee attack, Twin attack, Deadly attack
Affinity (This character may be in a Mandalorian squad)
Rapport (Black Sun or Pirate characters cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Teras-kasi style (Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10)
Force 2 Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked)
Lightsaber Assault (Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks)
Sith Rage 1 (Force 1: +10 Damage on all attacks this turn)
Commander effect
characters who's name contain Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares gain +4 attack +10 damage.
Can we get a PT?
Love it.
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TimmerB123 He's pretty badass. PT
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Sithborg Faction?
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swinefeld Sithborg wrote:
Faction?
Sith
The_Celestial_Warrior Sithborg wrote:
Faction?
Sith
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Sithborg Just wondered, because it wasn't listed in this thread, and didn't check the set list thread.
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swinefeld Quote:
6/13/13
9. Darth Maul, Death Watch Overlord -- Sith -- RM: Darth Maul, CotS
Cost 45
Hit Points 110
Defense 20
Attack +14
Damage 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Mandalorian squad]
Deadly Attack [Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 19 or 20]
Rapport [Black Sun or Pirate characters cost 1 less when in the same squad as this character]
Teräs Käsi Style [Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak [Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked]
Lightsaber Assault [Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks]
Sith Rage [Force 1: +10 Damage on all attacks this turn]
Commander Effect
A character whose name contains Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares get +4 Attack +10 Damage.
fingersandteeth changes based on PT comments
Quote:
9. Darth Maul, Death Watch Overlord -- Sith -- RM: Darth Maul, CotS
Cost 45
Hit Points 110
Defense 20
Attack +14
Damage 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Mandalorian squad]
Deadly Attack [Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 19 or 20]
Teräs Käsi Style [Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10]
Intimidation [Living non-Unique enemies within 6 squares get -2 Attack and -2 Defense. Living allies within 6 squares get +2 Attack and +2 Defense.]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak [Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked]
Lightsaber Assault [Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks]
Lightsaber Riposte [Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker]
Commander Effect
A character whose name contains Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares get +4 Attack +10 Damage.
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swinefeld go with Deri's changes?
TimmerB123 Yeah - PT
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swinefeld TimmerB123 PT report coming soon with sthlrd2
Wow this fig is ridiculously good.
He dominated the game without even doing much attacking.
First off - intimidation needs to go. It's an epic ability on a 45pt piece. When he's up in the mix, he gives a virtual +8 to DW allies, and then you'll usually have traps from the saboteur on top of that.
His CE is really quite good. DW guys really only have a downfall of internal strife, but that only comes up 5% of the time. And if it does come up - you easily kill the ally probably standing right next to you, and you get the points.
The Raiders are hitting for 80 with twin cunning mobile, and at +17 when Maul is within 6. Virtual +19 when he's also within 6 of the NU target (virtual 23 when they are within 6 of a saboteur as well). It gets nuts quick. This is why intimidation needs to go.
His CE gives huge damage potential to his squad. On a squad with just 5 DW guys, he adds a potential 100 damage a round, and really more than that since more shots will hit due to the +4.
I'm still perplexed why he got such a poor report from the first PT. I agree with most of the changes on him (riposte for rage, no pirate rapport), but his essentials were the same. He becomes so great in the mandos. He gives +4, +10 to guys usually getting twin. He gets the movement from resolnare. He can cloak up and not be sniped. He can take a melee beating and stay alive due to teras kasi. I don't really see a downside.
The only thing I can say is that he is clearly better in a mando squad. He brings something to the mandos that they don't have, and the Sith already have it. The CE goes directly to work in the Mandos, where as it cost a lot to get it working in Sith. (Mando the Lesser, Ulic).
How about this:
Lose intimidation, and in it's place put this: *Rapport [Costs 5 less when in a Sith Squad]. And raise his cost 5 points.
Quote:
9. Darth Maul, Death Watch Overlord -- Sith -- RM: Darth Maul, CotS
Cost 4550
Hit Points 110
Defense 20
Attack +14
Damage 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Mandalorian squad]
Deadly Attack [Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 19 or 20]
Teräs Käsi Style [Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10]
Intimidation [Living non-Unique enemies within 6 squares get -2 Attack and -2 Defense. Living allies within 6 squares get +2 Attack and +2 Defense.]
*Rapport [Costs 5 less when in a Sith Squad]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak [Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked]
Lightsaber Assault [Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks]
Lightsaber Riposte [Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker]
Commander Effect
A character whose name contains Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares get +4 Attack +10 Damage.[/b]
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fingersandteeth i'm all for dropping Intimidation, it was a suggestion and i'm glad it was tested because it looks fairly benign until you understand its repercussions.
The cost increase i'm not sure about.
His target is definitely to bring something unique to the mando's, more than the sith, that was pointed out earlier in the design thread so i don't want to price him out of being decent.
Bringing him in with the mando's your build is pretty set. Its kelborn and deathwatch. You can't really fit Pre-visla on, and its pointless to bring the other overlord so what you played is about his best build so it depends what he was played against.
Styles make fights as they say.
He was probably underwhelming in the other (mando) playtest because the build wasn't optimal and he faced a pretty scary (T1) Darth Bane build. The speed of the Revan/Bane build probably took a lot away from the Mando squad that relied on Kelborn to keep pace and Tera Kasi is useless against Banes OWF so it might have reduced his effectiveness.
Likewise, i think against a vong build that will find it difficult to catch a resnolaring Mando squad with a lot of boosted guns he probably seemed stronger than he should be. Further, if it was a melee vong, rather than spit/SA vong, then his Tera Kasi is going to pay much greater dividends. Also, the change from rage to riposte was an improvement even without adding on Intimidation so perhaps the real problem is just the intimidation.
With a 5 point cost increase you will lose 1-2 activations in a build that will max out at about 16-17 with no act control.
So far he was underwhelming against a Rock smasher sith (seems about right, seeing as he is an attempt to give the Mando's a rock) and bananas against an as yet UN-defined vong squad with an SA that does crazy things to stats of both teams.
My guess is without intimidation he's probably about right, perhaps 3 points more.
I'm not really a fan of these rapport for one faction when a fig has the potential of several factions but I'm not vehemently against it, its just a weird design point that seems to be creeping into the game, a side effect of adding so much affinity I guess.
I'll wait to see the Vong team that played against him but it seems like intimidation was the real imbalancing thing. Without that he's kind of like Cadeus lite for the mando's who would really need Kelborn to justify his 50 point cost.
regardless, i think without Intimidation and settling his final cost he seems to be what i wanted out of the fig so if everyone else is fine with the last update, i'd go along with it.
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TimmerB123 I hear what you're saying about Rapport, but I think it's just the logical extension to the fact that it's virtually impossible to balance figures in multiple factions.
Do you cost it right in one and thus overcost it in another? Or undercost it one and cost it correct in another? Rapport is a way to try and balance it.
This character is dramatically better in Mandos than sith. I don't think he'd see much play in Sith even if he was 10 points less. Just because his CE is practically nothing there, or if you do try and make it work, you're paying for it (Mando the Lesser, Ulic).
In our game, Maul wasn't even touched. I don't think he was attacked once. Jake had range 8 blastbugs, and nasty scarred, shaped warriors. But due to resolnare and his back-up guns, they never got close. The Mandos and their insane guns tore through the Vong, even with the Vong having stacked triple counters to non-melee (Harrar, +4 defense from Nen Yim, Nen Yim's move 2 after a failed crab armor save CE). We never even saw Teras Kasi in action. And it was against a melee squad.
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fingersandteeth TimmerB123 wrote:
In our game, Maul wasn't even touched. I don't think he was attacked once. Jake had range 8 blastbugs, and nasty scarred, shaped warriors. But due to resolnare and his back-up guns, they never got close. The Mandos and their insane guns tore through the Vong, even with the Vong having stacked triple counters to non-melee (Harrar, +4 defense from Nen Yim, Nen Yim's move 2 after a failed crab armor save CE). We never even saw Teras Kasi in action. And it was against a melee squad.
Yeah, it is the match i envisioned. The common vong style of running into shooters and not making it. So it was against the Sith swap when we tried Shak.
How do you think the game would've gone against a Nom worker adept spit swarm?
Maul is meant to be more theme in Sith. Sith more to bring Savage into Holosid for non savage FR.
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TimmerB123 fingersandteeth wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
In our game, Maul wasn't even touched. I don't think he was attacked once. Jake had range 8 blastbugs, and nasty scarred, shaped warriors. But due to resolnare and his back-up guns, they never got close. The Mandos and their insane guns tore through the Vong, even with the Vong having stacked triple counters to non-melee (Harrar, +4 defense from Nen Yim, Nen Yim's move 2 after a failed crab armor save CE). We never even saw Teras Kasi in action. And it was against a melee squad.
Yeah, it is the match i envisioned. The common vong style of running into shooters and not making it. So it was against the Sith swap when we tried Shak.
How do you think the game would've gone against a Nom worker adept spit swarm?
Maul is meant to be more theme in Sith. Sith more to bring Savage into Holosid for non savage FR.
Totally different game vs Nom Spitters obviously. Also would have been different with Warriors and Sha'kel - that would have given them the range to get in there and really threaten. Or if he would have just gone out to spam blastbugs.
The thing is though that Maul is tough enough on his own to justify his cost, but his CE is really good. Unlike prideful - there is no drawback.
Hadn't really thought about Savage in Sith. Is it that big of a deal? He can already just use sidious' FPs in Separatists, and we've never seen that make a splash. He can also add in a Nightsister Mother (not a bad little fi on her own, as Darth Jim showed). What's the Sith squad you're thinking? Maul, Savage, Holosid, and probably Wyyyrlock. You can fit Revan and an R7 and you're about done. (12 pts left).
We want Maul to be good, and he certainly is. Drop intimidation and let him be awesome in the Mandos and not so much in the Sith - that's fine. The Mandos need it more. They still have to face the Czerka Tech which hurts that squad badly.
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Sithborg Just remember the Mouse Droid effect. Any Death Watch character in the future will be able to shoot and combine fire. Not likely an issue, but it is best to bring it up now, than in the future.
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TimmerB123 OK - Intimidation gone.
Forget the cost increase or rapport
added wording to avoid mouse droid effect, thanks Scott for pointing that out.
Quote:
9. Darth Maul, Death Watch Overlord -- Sith -- RM: Darth Maul, CotS
Cost 45
Hit Points 110
Defense 20
Attack +14
Damage 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Mandalorian squad]
Deadly Attack [Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 19 or 20]
Teräs Käsi Style [Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak [Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked]
Lightsaber Assault [Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks]
Lightsaber Riposte [Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker]
Commander Effect
A character whose name contains Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares with a Damage value greater than 0 get +4 Attack +10 Damage.[/b]
Done
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swinefeld updated list
fingersandteeth Done
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TimmerB123 bump
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swinefeld A couple comments:
Space test has this card stacked at 6pt font, without the mouse syndrome wording in the CE. It probably isn't needed. Is it a huge deal if some DW fig with 0 damage gets made and can shoot?
May also need to leave Deadly Attack undefined to avoid small font.
2nd - this guy has been sitting for quite a while - Jason or Brad, sign off!
FlyingArrow swinefeld wrote:
A couple comments:
Space test has this card stacked at 6pt font, without the mouse syndrome wording in the CE. It probably isn't needed. Is it a huge deal if some DW fig with 0 damage gets made and can shoot?
Giving any future 0-dmg DW figures Melee Attack would prevent that anyway.
The_Celestial_Warrior swinefeld wrote:
A couple comments:
Space test has this card stacked at 6pt font, without the mouse syndrome wording in the CE. It probably isn't needed. Is it a huge deal if some DW fig with 0 damage gets made and can shoot?
May also need to leave Deadly Attack undefined to avoid small font.
2nd - this guy has been sitting for quite a while - Jason or Brad, sign off!
I can't imagine any Mando being made without damage, much less a member of an aggressive sub-faction like Death Watch.
Done.
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urbanjedi Esp not for cheap enough that spamming would be an issue
Done
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Markedman247 Just need to remove that [/b] at the bottom.
swinefeld FINAL
Quote:
** DONE **
9. Darth Maul, Death Watch Overlord -- Sith -- RM: Darth Maul, CotS
Cost 45
Hit Points 110
Defense 20
Attack +14
Damage 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in a Mandalorian squad]
Deadly Attack [Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 19 or 20]
Teräs Käsi Style [Whenever this character takes damage from a melee attack, reduce the damage dealt by 10]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 1
Force Cloak [Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked]
Lightsaber Assault [Force 1, replaces attacks: Make 2 attacks]
Lightsaber Riposte [Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker]
Commander Effect
A character whose name contains Savage Oppress may be in your squad regardless of faction.
Death Watch followers within 6 squares get +4 Attack and +10 Damage.
Markedman247 Don't forget the AND between the attack and damage bonuses in the second CE.
swinefeld Markedman247 wrote:
Don't forget the AND between the attack and damage bonuses in the second CE.
thanks :)
LESHIPPY Image
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LESHIPPY fixed CE
Image
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FlyingArrow Savage Oppress should be spelled Savage Opress. However, on the Vengeance card it is spelled Savage Oppress. I do not know if it is more important to be consistent with canon or previous cards.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Savage_Opressswinefeld FlyingArrow wrote:
Savage Oppress should be spelled Savage Opress. However, on the Vengeance card it is spelled Savage Oppress. I do not know if it is more important to be consistent with canon or previous cards.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Savage_OpressI'd say just keep the misspelling so it matches the card... unless an errata has been issued already?
As to the rest of the card, text looks good on first pass.
A minor cosmetic improvement - pull up the 2nd CE a bit and bump the first one down for a little space between it and the heading.
FlyingArrowswinefeld wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Savage Oppress should be spelled Savage Opress. However, on the Vengeance card it is spelled Savage Oppress. I do not know if it is more important to be consistent with canon or previous cards.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Savage_OpressI'd say just keep the misspelling so it matches the card... unless an errata has been issued already?
I don't think there was an errata. The misspelling could be avoided entirely by saying 'Unique character whose name contains Savage'. Currently there is no other character with the word Savage in its name. I could imagine a non-unique being created in the future, but I doubt another unique would be created.
Markedman247 The responsible thing would be to issue errata and make this name correct in the CE. Just shrugging it off is unprofessional.
Anything worth doing is worth doing right, even when it is correcting an error.
swinefeld Markedman247 wrote:
The responsible thing would be to issue errata and make this name correct in the CE. Just shrugging it off is unprofessional.
Anything worth doing is worth doing right, even when it is correcting an error.
Agreed, that would be better.
There are a handful of errata such as this that need to be made for past sets.
swinefeld Savage Opress (spelling)
and then reposition the 2 CEs so the 1st has a bit of breathing room below the heading, then move the 2nd up a bit to reduce the gap between them
LESHIPPY Fixed
Image
FlyingArrowLooks good to me.
swinefeld
swinefeld done
:: swine's stamp of approval ::
fingersandteeth Nice
:fight: