|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
Moving the Klat Assassin discussion here to avoid taking over the TN regional thread... atmsalad wrote:juice man wrote:droidadmiral wrote:say what you want to about the man, but he is a great player. second person in history to win with an all fringe squad, pretty impressive... even if he is a bit of a jerk Well, if he won with an all WotC Fringe, that would be very impressive. As it is now, with V-sets, Fringe is much better. And he is not just a "bit of a jerk". Okay, we all get it, he is a jerk. Now let's move on and not let any of this spoil the thread. So to get the ball rolling in another direction, is the klat assassin over powered? He obviously found some great synergy with zam, talon and the Klats(props to scruffy), but is the klat alone to strong? With cloaked and self destruct 20, if played right you have to lose 20 hit points in order to kill one. I am just saying, for his point cost he is more than stacked. Anyone agree, disagree? Also, other play reports? I would still love to read them! 😊 I liked them enough to take them to the 2013 regionals: --ZZ Caedus-- 54 Darth Caedus, Sith Lord 48 Darth Zannah 44 Zam Wesell, Bounty Hunter 27 Lobot 24 Klatooinian Assassin x2 3 Ugnaught Demolitionist Preferred Reinforcements: (Lobot) 12 Klatooinian Assassin (Lobot) 8 R7 Astromech Droid (200pts. 9 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/131822/zz-caedusWith Zam and Klats it's the same basic idea as scruffyhan. Differences: * Not boosted by Talon * No Talon movement breaker * Major melee interference from Zannah, Caedus * Major movement breaker with Caedus Lost to TINT's Cloaked Mandos in the Delaware Regionals 2013. (But beat them in Swiss.) The Klats suffer greatly if there isn't enough Green space for them to hide in. And if the green squares don't give a good line of sight, then they can be safely ignored.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
atmsalad wrote:So to get the ball rolling in another direction, is the klat assassin over powered? He obviously found some great synergy with zam, talon and the Klats(props to scruffy), but is the klat alone to strong? With cloaked and self destruct 20, if played right you have to lose 20 hit points in order to kill one. I am just saying, for his point cost he is more than stacked. Anyone agree, disagree? Also, other play reports? I would still love to read them! 😊 The Klat Assassin has been out for almost two years - it's won at least one Regional last year (in Republic with Mon Mothma), and it was part of the squad that was first after Swiss at GenCon. I don't necessarily think it's so far gone it's broken, but with the combination of Cloaked, Self Destruct, base 20 damage, and a high attack, it outclasses most pieces in its point range. I do think fingersandteeth is onto it with this quote from the powercreep thread last year: fingersandteeth wrote:If the Vsets are failing anywhere its the aggressive costing of grunt pieces so that you have a bunch of no name pilots, assassins and droids running around wrecking shop with barely any recognizable hero's being used.
The real damaging power creep isn't Mace windu or Cadeus or whatever, its the re-costing of sub 15 point pieces that is altering the utilization of grunts.
Geonosian Drones, Naboo Pilots, Klatoonian Assassins etc, with the added synergies; these are all the mistakes. At least it's good to see people complaining about pieces that are actually tough, rather than the knee-jerk reactions against pieces like Jaina Sword of the Jedi, or complaints that fixing Daala was unjustified. I don't think the scruffyhan squad is anywhere near unbeatable - it doesn't have uber movement or activation control, so there are builds that can play around it, and even with the double bodyguard, which is clever, Talon Karrde is still potentially vulnerable with no ranged defense, so if shooters can get a line of sight to him, he can go down. It is very good though.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
It's tier 1, I would say. But part of the problem with so many Klats is that you have to keep them apart. On some maps, that's a problem. You can't keep them apart, keep them in cover, and keep them where they can get any decent shots. I do think that we are going to see a lawnmower squad make a big splash at some regional this year. They're perfectly suited to take out Klats and Daala troopers. I almost hesitate to say that because as a Daala player I'd rather not see them be part of the meta.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
Caedus is good for pulling people next to the Klat bombs. Would he also be a good counter to pull them out of cover?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/26/2008
Posts: 1,233
|
FlyingArrow wrote:Caedus is good for pulling people next to the Klat bombs. Would he also be a good counter to pull them out of cover? i am not sure on this. Doesn't sith battle med require targeting?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
|
For the record I just got back into minis a month ago after a 3 year absence. So this piece, as is every piece after the first v-set, is quite new to me. So in coming back seeing squads like bamboo death shots, snow poops, klat ass and adding geo poppers to an already good lancer squad is quite annoying. I miss luke snow speeders, solo charge, rebel commandos and different classic squads. It warmed my heart to see how well professor Luke's art class did. Even with the little annoyances I can't say this next part loud enough. I am uber happy to be playing again and ecstatic that this wonderful game has been kept going. It will take some time, but I am sure I will become acclimated to the change in the meta.
Back on topic, flying arrow you are right about the green squares, especially with zam needing them for the auto damage. Map choice is pretty important for them. My beaf with them is how good they are without the help from any CE or support piece. Daila squads at least need several commanders to support them in most cases. These guys you just pop in Swiss Army knife talon and call it a day. Even more than that it is probably the fact that they are fringe. So lobot can bring them and any other faction could reasonably build a squad with these guys as grunts. If it was in any other faction I may not dislike it so passionately. Am I exaggerating, yea, will I still play him, of course, lol
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
countrydude82487 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:Caedus is good for pulling people next to the Klat bombs. Would he also be a good counter to pull them out of cover? i am not sure on this. Doesn't sith battle med require targeting? You can target one of your own pieces though, or an enemy piece that's out of cover, as long as it's a legal target, and everything else within 6 gets pulled. Ysalamari is a problem with the Fringe squad though.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
atmsalad wrote:For the record I just got back into minis a month ago after a 3 year absence. So this piece, as is every piece after the first v-set, is quite new to me. So in coming back seeing squads like bamboo death shots, snow poops, klat ass and adding geo poppers to an already good lancer squad is quite annoying. I miss luke snow speeders, solo charge, rebel commandos and different classic squads. It warmed my heart to see how well professor Luke's art class did. Even with the little annoyances I can't say this next part loud enough. I am uber happy to be playing again and ecstatic that this wonderful game has been kept going. It will take some time, but I am sure I will become acclimated to the change in the meta. I do think Solo Charge is still really, really good - Sharron does really well with it in New Zealand - he's been playing a variant with the Vong Ossus bodyguard instead of Gha Nachkt. And I think urbanjedi took the Rebel Commandos with Han Smuggler to a Regional win last year too. Both of those squads have still been able to compete recently. I do think we have seen more of a meta shakeup this year than any previous year though, so it's a little up in the air exactly what's good with the stronger swarms and fringe squads we're seeing. I do think that Solo Charge with accurate, disruptive, and unleash the force is in with a shot against a lot of swarm squads.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 2,093
|
It was 2 years ago, but the rebel commando squad is just as good as ever. Same for Solo Charge. And really for all the "good" WOTC squads.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
urbanjedi wrote:It was 2 years ago, but the rebel commando squad is just as good as ever. Same for Solo Charge. And really for all the "good" WOTC squads. Yes. urbanjedi was probably one overlooked ugnaught away from winning the PA regional with a pure WotC Lancer build.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
|
Mobile/Greater Mobile Attack is one way to handle Killer Klatts. It hurts, but you aren't stuck next to cover for Zam to hurt you. If you kill more than one a turn she can't get multiple attackers. That fringe squad is not as bad as Daala/Slaver was.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
|
juice man wrote:Mobile/Greater Mobile Attack is one way to handle Killer Klatts. It hurts, but you aren't stuck next to cover for Zam to hurt you. If you kill more than one a turn she can't get multiple attackers. That fringe squad is not as bad as Daala/Slaver was. Yeah, that's a really good solution. Klats are good and definitely tier 1, but certainly not broken. The easiest way to tell is to realize that they are nearly 2 years old and have only made a moderate splash at Regionals and GenCon. The runner up at GenCon used one (just one), and a few regionals have used them, but not a ton. Definitely tier 1, but a "broken" piece would be played more than that. A lot of people define "broken" as "something very very good (tier 1) that I don't like playing", which isn't really the definition, but there you go.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
|
Echo24 wrote:juice man wrote:Mobile/Greater Mobile Attack is one way to handle Killer Klatts. It hurts, but you aren't stuck next to cover for Zam to hurt you. If you kill more than one a turn she can't get multiple attackers. That fringe squad is not as bad as Daala/Slaver was. Yeah, that's a really good solution. Klats are good and definitely tier 1, but certainly not broken. The easiest way to tell is to realize that they are nearly 2 years old and have only made a moderate splash at Regionals and GenCon. The runner up at GenCon used one (just one), and a few regionals have used them, but not a ton. Definitely tier 1, but a "broken" piece would be played more than that. A lot of people define "broken" as "something very very good (tier 1) that I don't like playing", which isn't really the definition, but there you go. After watching the games at the TN regional I agree that this is not as bad as daala and slavers, but I do not agree that it is easy to use mobile/greater mobile to kill and move away. You would have to set that up perfectly and with disruptive, ysalamari, and the movement before the round granted by talon it is a lot easier said then done especially since you have to be able to do 30 on the move to do it. I would not say that the klats are broken either. I would say that it is definitely a tier 1 squad that does straight up beat a lot of stuff, looking at you rock squads, but it is also good against a lot of the other stuff by the simple fact that it has cloaked, self destruct, yslamari, and disruptive. can't wait to see if anyone else tries to use this at another tournament and see how it does.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
|
Deaths_Baine wrote:Echo24 wrote:juice man wrote:Mobile/Greater Mobile Attack is one way to handle Killer Klatts. It hurts, but you aren't stuck next to cover for Zam to hurt you. If you kill more than one a turn she can't get multiple attackers. That fringe squad is not as bad as Daala/Slaver was. Yeah, that's a really good solution. Klats are good and definitely tier 1, but certainly not broken. The easiest way to tell is to realize that they are nearly 2 years old and have only made a moderate splash at Regionals and GenCon. The runner up at GenCon used one (just one), and a few regionals have used them, but not a ton. Definitely tier 1, but a "broken" piece would be played more than that. A lot of people define "broken" as "something very very good (tier 1) that I don't like playing", which isn't really the definition, but there you go. After watching the games at the TN regional I agree that this is not as bad as daala and slavers, but I do not agree that it is easy to use mobile/greater mobile to kill and move away. You would have to set that up perfectly and with disruptive, ysalamari, and the movement before the round granted by talon it is a lot easier said then done especially since you have to be able to do 30 on the move to do it. I would not say that the klats are broken either. I would say that it is definitely a tier 1 squad that does straight up beat a lot of stuff, looking at you rock squads, but it is also good against a lot of the other stuff by the simple fact that it has cloaked, self destruct, yslamari, and disruptive. can't wait to see if anyone else tries to use this at another tournament and see how it does. Leia RH is your friend. Kill and move away before they explode
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
|
Deaths_Baine wrote:After watching the games at the TN regional I agree that this is not as bad as daala and slavers, but I do not agree that it is easy to use mobile/greater mobile to kill and move away. You would have to set that up perfectly and with disruptive, ysalamari, and the movement before the round granted by talon it is a lot easier said then done especially since you have to be able to do 30 on the move to do it. Ah, but I didn't say it was easy, just one way to deal with them. Opp/Cunning best ways I can think of to get that 30 dam.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,410
Location: Chokio, MN
|
TimmerB123 wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:Echo24 wrote:juice man wrote:Mobile/Greater Mobile Attack is one way to handle Killer Klatts. It hurts, but you aren't stuck next to cover for Zam to hurt you. If you kill more than one a turn she can't get multiple attackers. That fringe squad is not as bad as Daala/Slaver was. Yeah, that's a really good solution. Klats are good and definitely tier 1, but certainly not broken. The easiest way to tell is to realize that they are nearly 2 years old and have only made a moderate splash at Regionals and GenCon. The runner up at GenCon used one (just one), and a few regionals have used them, but not a ton. Definitely tier 1, but a "broken" piece would be played more than that. A lot of people define "broken" as "something very very good (tier 1) that I don't like playing", which isn't really the definition, but there you go. After watching the games at the TN regional I agree that this is not as bad as daala and slavers, but I do not agree that it is easy to use mobile/greater mobile to kill and move away. You would have to set that up perfectly and with disruptive, ysalamari, and the movement before the round granted by talon it is a lot easier said then done especially since you have to be able to do 30 on the move to do it. I would not say that the klats are broken either. I would say that it is definitely a tier 1 squad that does straight up beat a lot of stuff, looking at you rock squads, but it is also good against a lot of the other stuff by the simple fact that it has cloaked, self destruct, yslamari, and disruptive. can't wait to see if anyone else tries to use this at another tournament and see how it does. Leia RH is your friend. Kill and move away before they explode I'd also add Commander Ahsoka as your best friend, since she give you Rolling Cleave. And access to Mas, means board wide Rolling Cleave.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/17/2009
Posts: 489
|
You also have to remember that before the Klats there was the Kel Dor Bounty hunter being used in a fair amount of squads.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,410
Location: Chokio, MN
|
leshippy wrote:You also have to remember that before the Klats there was the Kel Dor Bounty hunter being used in a fair amount of squads. Kinda sad how the Klat Assassin replaced the Kel Dor, BH from being played. I voiced this concern during the design process for the piece. Hopefully we can get a piece in the future that can make the Kel Dor on par with the Klat Assasin. I always prefer making older peices competitive, and that we had a piece introduced that completely destroyed a once usable piece from being played kinda made me a bit frustrated with the Klat. I had a Imperial Jorrus squad where I'd purposefully blow up kel dors with his CE (used to do the same with Darth Vader, Champion of the Sith back in the day). Now Klat's are just the more competitve option in those squads.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,784
Location: Canada
|
I haven't weighed in on this discussion yet, but I'll just point something out from my own experience: I'm a person whose preferred faction has been Republic, for years. And for years, whenever I had built a Republic squad, I nearly always used Rex. He's just such a well-fitting piece for the faction, right behind R2. But now that the Klats are here, I'd rather take 2 of them (and 3 fodder) or 3 of them (and 1 less fodder) than use Rex. That says something, because Rex has been a Republic staple for years.
The thing is, they are just as accurate as he is (+12). And they're not nerfed by the Czerka Shield Tech because they don't rely on Twin to be worth their points. And they're Cloaked, which means they're hard to kill (very much *unlike* Rex!). And you can get more of them, which allows for more LOS-coverage options on the board. And they offer some lancer-protection with SD. They obviously do less single-turn damage than Rex, but I've found that I prefer the Klats every single time. And this is in a faction that really doesn't have many viable ways to boost the Klats...as opposed to the Fringe or Imperials. A +12 Cloaked shooter is just SO useful.
The only time I use Rex anymore is if I'm building around his GMA CE, or building an Epic 500 squad, where Rex can get boosted to Triple-Twin or even Quad-Twin Attack.
The reason I mention this is simply to say that, since it has replaced Rex in my squads, I consider the Klat Assassin to be over-the-top good for its cost, and even at the top end of the Power-For-Cost scale.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 2,093
|
I will point out that Tim had 1 of these guys AND a Keldor in his Gencon squad last year that went undefeated in Swiss.
|
|
|
Guest |