The route the v-sets are going, in my opinion, should follow more closely with Magic the Gathering.

MtG only keeps certain sets available and has a "core set" that brings back favorites from older sets. This is definitely a way to keep things fresh and more realistic. The problem I am seeing is that there is really only 1 aayla I would ever play. There is really only 1 NR Han I would use now, 1 Quinlan Vos, One Caedus totally outranks the other, the list goes on.
By shutting and opening sets you can limit the reliance on certain pieces and open it up for other versions so we do not see the same armies all the time and also the meta changes as well. What would happen if for a set release you dropped Gha neckht and lobot? it would change the game a lot, some people would love it during that time and some people would not like it during that time. But it will rotate back in quickly.

This is the general idea I am presenting.

Pieces are getting too powerful and the game is changing. Change is great, but it has to be uniformed change. It cannot be change that takes away from playing experience.

I, for one, would love a few rule changes for instance. I do not think mouse droids and things should force targeting rules even while adjacent, or at all, or provide cover.

I think override should be changed and the ways doors are handled should be changed imo. No time ever have I seen a droid look at a door and it open.

I would like this thread to be a place where ideas can be presented.

@fingersandteeth

Its not divide and conquer, its go over why a large playing group does not play "standard" minis and the idea that maybe they ought to be listened to because they are a strong playing group and are very active and have been active in v-sets before.

I heard sithbot was on shhn 2 weeks ago and asked a question about v-sets via message and was ignored. He was wondering if they are getting away from daala's and things because he would love to be apart of that version. no answer at all.

Which, I feel, is a shame. People should not be easily offended or on the defensive when trying to discuss things.
Divide and Conquer? not at all. more like stay divided until some common ground can be found.

I think that if you wanted some participation from a lot of the Legends players you can host an online tournament with one rule change that states:

Armies can have a maximum of 12 players.

this lets players that rely on swarms try out other things. It also allows people who do not like swarms to play.

I remember seeing SithBot but don't remember the particular question. The chat window on SHNN is a bit of a mess as people post responding to what is being said and post to each other, and it's all intermingled. There are usually 3 or 4 people on the call, half of whom aren't logged in to see the chat window. (I've called in a few times myself, and I can understand why - it's a lot easier to pay attention to both the chat window and what's being said when you aren't talking yourself.)

In any case, this is a good place to open a discussion.

Well when the V-sets first started it was said they would build upon WOTC sets without changes there rules. So while there are of cause new rules with V-sets they have not changed exciting rules (though some might interact in different ways with them). This is IMO how it should be so not in favour of what you are saying.
Sure there are some things WOTC did that just seem dumb like the mouse droid giving cover but once you change one rules, forever will it be an issue for every single rule that members don't like.

It will be**** I don't like this rule..... well you changed the mouse rule.... I don't care this rule sucks.. And so on.

Really don't think that will be good long term for this game. Not saying what you have said is bad just don't think its in the best interest of the game long term.

Well the way i see it, this game has many different formats to play in, and each one of them deserves a chance to be played competitively. So far we have in this game the Tennessee Customs Sets format, the Royal Rumble format, the standard minis format, dynamic duo format, Tile Wars format and Epic format (which does have restrictions placed on it like no activation control and also i think a limit on the max activations. 16 i think?). All of these are being played in tournaments, so i think there is no need to re-invent the game by changing rules game wide, because people can play the format they like most. Each of these ways to play the game are just as valuable and important. I appreciate new ways to play cause it makes the game feel fresh and you can experiment with new strategies. If we could have Vassal tournaments for each of these each year, i think that would be a ton of fun! I suck at tile Wars but that doesn't keep me from trying it.

I' think I'd be up to organizing some these tournaments on Vassal if i had access to the tournament software that people use to determine who goes vs who. Does anyone know where to get that?

MtG style releases: I would imagine the WotC pieces would always be legal. It would be the Vsets that would rotate in and out. We really only have one season per year, though. Hardly any tournaments (in the US) from GenCon to FrostyCon. It's all about Regionals season. With just one season, it's hard to justify rotating things in and out.

Hey Jen'ari

thanks for creating a new thread, i appreciate you moving this discussion away from the v set 10 thread.

Believe it or not a lot of your points are not lost on me, many of them i have talked about and suggested them to other veteran SWM players and some of them have even been attempted with unfortunately poor results. I'll go point by point and I hope you'll see how difficult it is to get the community to move astray from the well beaten path that SWM and the vsets have trodden for the last 10 and 4 years respectively.




We actually tried this at gen con a couple of years ago. there was a tournament held were only a certain number of sets were allowed to be built from. it was like rebel storm to universe, champions to imperial alliance, legacy to the current v set. The set distributions were well thought out with door control options, tempo control omitted etc.

A number of veteran players played in this but the turn out was poor. The reasons for the low turnout isn't exactly clear but the general rule seems to be that when you start to change things people don't like it. Attendance drops and the game suffers.

I mean the quality of the TN group figures are high but there aren't swarms of people rushing to join, even with Bronson's generous tournament prizes. My personal reasons are rooted in the fact that my time for games now compared to 4 years ago is dramatically reduced and investing in several game types isn't feasible. So i stick to the one I know. I imagine this is the same for many people.




Similar to the last opinion I gave, changing rules, particularly long term rules rooted in the core aspect of the game is hard if not impossible.

The main argument that resists these types of changes is that the consensus opinion that the vset game should at the very least be capable of being seamlessly integrated with the core rules of the game. This allows new players who start collecting the figures and playing with them on their own the chance to get involved with current tournaments without having to adapt to new rule changes. Its daunting enough to start learning 400+ new figures but if there are a multitude of core rule changes then there is likely enough cause for them to go back to their own homes to play.

Keeping the core rule set the same at least give new played the chance to understand the game before diving into the game.

There is also the opinion that these rules aren't really problematic and are just factors to deal with in the game.

Override was pinned as a problem by my playgroup within about a month of release of rebel storm (October 2004). We house ruled that you needed a save to lock a door shut because it was so powerful. Fast forward a bit and other override pieces came out and satchel charge etc.
Now, those same people who made that house rule now see override as a core and powerful aspect of the game to be preserved. I've designed many pieces with door control and I'm always persuaded to limit their effectiveness in order to maintain overrides place in the game.

Different people have different opinions on what they like. The only common ground that is consistently able to be maintained in arguments about rules is that the Core rule set should be maintained.

I've always hated that lightsabers can be non-melee attacks. But its ingrained in the core rules and so it stays.

There are more but i don't want to belabor the point which is the common aspect is the game WotC left us with and everything we do builds on that, regardless of the inconsistency in the core rules.


This is a tricky point because I like those guys but what TN have done is cause a fissure in the community.
They have collected some vset figs, made a bunch of their own rules and created a couple of sets away from the vset community that has tried as hard as they can to maintain the game with all the principles I've just discussed.
I don't begrudge them their effort to grow another community but you can't expect the established vset community to bend to demands from a new startup.

Its akin to taking your ball and going to the park across town because you don't like how the B-ball is being played in your hood. You've found a group who plays how you like which is good. But how well do you expect to be received if you go back to your hood and start demanding that the game be played how you want it to now you've found a bunch of guys who think like you do?

I've actually been in several situations like this. I used to play Aussie rules. I played with one team and the team across town, who were usually better than us, started losing players and they needed our players to maintain their team. We didn't need them, our squad was strong even if we weren't as good. However, Lots of politicking later and the teams merge with a new name. The competition for places made people leave, often bitterly and some long friendships ended over it all.
Fast forward a year or two later and the team reverts back to the OTHER team name, the one that probably wouldn't be around without the merger. It annoyed the piss out of me and that, as well as the same issue with time made me leave it all behind.

This feels the same.

You don't like the vsets, and certain core rules of the game and that's fine. I'm glad there is another community open for you but you seriously can't expect to have much sway in the vset game when you've moved on in a new direction.

To be brutally honest, there are many aspects of the Vsets and their development I hate. If you've been involved in any part of it, you will know that people get attached to their designs, their ideas or the manner in which things are done. Its kind of a headless monster and usually the person who kicks up the biggest stink and causes the most ruckus ends up moving the monster the most. Often, a single wayward comment can piss me off for days. But it is what it is. Its just a bunch of players who love the game trying to keep it going and get their designs played.

An example of one of my personal grievances follows;
The intent of the vsets was to maintain the strong factions and build on the weak. That's why in the first vset Bastilla, Yammosk and Revan were introduced as power pieces.
However, the next set Mace supercrit was made and the whole intent of the vset was altered. It was now just a method to play with new figs. The game now is pretty much vset dominated but based on the core rule set we were left with. Still, as much as many aspects annoy me it has maintained the community and so my personal opinions are thus trivial.
So if you wish to exclude one squad type and all the people who enjoy those because you don't like them then the vset community isn't for you because the intent now is to make a varied meta in which all squad archetypes can be played. Its really hard to do, and our efforts sometimes fail with spectacular community fall out.

However, the community tries. I am actually very impressed with the effort of the playtesters for vset 10. Many figs have been played several times and the feed back has been awesome.

If you'd have asked me how many vsets would have been made when we started DotF i would have likely said about 3. 10 blows me away. So what we do can't be all that bad.

It doesn't please everyone but it pleases enough people to keep it going and the most successful aspect seems to be staying true to the core rules.

My main problem is there are too many figures. My Mind doesnt know what to do when it comes to building. If you know me from the past I never had trouble coming up with off the wall ideas that worked.

I dont think changing the way SWM has been played for 10 years is the answer.

Second point:
If a SA comes out there should be multi counters to it in the set or the following set.

Third point:
What about creating a new draft format? Making the formats we have now legal yes I know alot of them are just easier to find which leads to my fourth point.

Fourth point:
Its too hard to find stuff if you are starting new or coming back. If you are coming back the game has changed way too much and players are just turned off.

We could at least make the FAQ, Downloads, etc easier to find and a base for new players to go to.

I really think there needs to be a break from Vsets and the focus needs to be on getting new players and old players in the game.

I would be willing to step away from all my IA projects to do this but I am not wanted for good reason and take full responsibly for the game not moving forward when it comes to marketing and getting new players and old players back.I had the skills and mindset but cared more about destroying the game than trying to build it up because I was angry about a rumor and losing my father went crazy for the past 5 years.

If I was going about this I would start with wordpress and the focus would be personal blogs like TC and a place to download all SWM stuff. Covert all the private forums to a new forum which is not hard since PHP that gamers is build on is easy to move around.

Howdy!
Thanks for putting up a discussion thread,
I'm blown away by the boom in discussions and the high critical thinking/concrit feedback we're witnessing here on Bloomilk - it had been quiet for a long time.
Further, we have managed to avoid flamewars throughout our discussions, which is conduct that is to be highly commended.

Apologies for potentially sounding a broken record (i prefer the term "consistent"), and for the novella that follows, there's just so much food for thought on these issues.

I have to state biases upfront; having played w40k, chess etc and other games, I believe the games-culture is more important than the game-in-itself.
Also, I only play the Clone Wars era (Republic, Separatists, Fringe), so these factions have always had a lot of options

I think we need some more data, some more info to help put things in perspective,
and luckily TheHutts has done some tentative analysis of the 'power levels' in the WotC sets vs the VSets (up to the time of TheHutts's analysis); and there were some interesting findings
- there was 'more power creep' from WotC set to WotC Set relative to WotC/VSet or within the VSet to VSet group (a counter intuitive outcome, but awesome to see from the terms of reference etc)
- VSet pieces, excluding "Epics" and some of the Staggered Activation cards that have come out, are generally no more than at most 1 standard deviation more powerful than a randomly chosen WotC set piece.
- Top Tier squads are rarely 100% VSet.

So, there's some data points. I would very much like to see even more data, and a condensed 'winning gameplay gamestate' guides, similar to Combinatorial Chess gamestate analysis.

From another angle, it is possible to play 'puritan SWMinis' and only play using "Official" WotC figures and cards... nothing beyond Masters of the Force (or the last official WotC set). Before the game starts, both sides should agree to play using VSet cards or not.
That's the beauty of Roland Barthes "The Author is Dead"/Magritte/Derrida - this idea of 'personal cannon' and deciding what is or is not a part of that... each to their own. You can home-rule whatever you want to; when you go to 'tournament', you play by tournament rules that reminds me of the IT Crowd and 'street letters and numbers'.

A game is supposed to be fun - if people are only playing 'to win', that's their prerogative and if this becomes a recurring problem, you can then bring in these ultra-rare limited cards, they're super new and just printed,
like the Superhero Cards or the Deity cards that were made a long time ago...
Such as "The Force" 500pt 'I Win' limited edition card, it's an invisible miniature... you know the one?

Luckily, we have many options for 'extra' stat cards,
we have the PLETHORA of SurfRider56's awesome cards, we've got a bunch of digital cards customs that are on here.
There's loads of options and avenues to explore - ways to game and have fun.
This game is as much fun as Chess, but with more potential for longevity.
Provided people take the time to introduce the game to people via public exhibition matches, friendly games and games in 'exotic locales' - SWMini players are from all over the world, all sorts of gender identity and culture backgrounds, and have played minis in some awesome places.

All of that said,
I do not think the meta is broken as yet... I certainly do not endorse emulating a MtG method of playing the game -
corporate scrips and "milking the sacred cash cow" issues aside, MtG is for a very different audience, and is a 'play to win' style game, as much fun as it is. Retiring sets and designing the game to have each set 'have its day' and deliberately making broken pieces/combos you know you are going to retire or cause debate... that's 'trolling' and profiteering.
I've seen a lot of "friendships" lost or tested over MtG - subjectively, it seems to incite arguments (arguments seem to be more prevalent where MtG is played).

---

To the issue of 'longevity of the game';
what is meant by the phrase is that, the number of total players playing the game at any time (t) is decreasing, to the point where the game eventually ceases to be played when no-one knows how to or wants to play - that is the natural tendency of all things.
These things are what they are, neither optimist or pessimist - it is what it is - and if we accept the reality, we can prevent these undesired outcomes.

we have to be pragmatic in approaching the state of the game - it has been out of production for near on 5 years, and is still going strong.
There is not much data on: prize support, advertising and promotion levels for SWMinis or Bloomilk, game leagues and numbers of new players brought in vs number of players which become inactive,
total census of playerbase of SWMinis vs other game formats (such as FFG's Imperial Assault, ie competing with other game options).
That said, we need to understand what it is, the 'thing-in-itself', so as we can act appropriately to ensure the longevity of the game.

The game player base has ostensibly contracted somewhat,
but primarily due to decreases in awareness of the game, and the withdrawal of prize support/incentives; alongside the context of 'the great recession/great depression mk 2' in many parts of the world - many people have less time for recreational pursuits etc, and this factor is increasingly why people who were in the game are having to leave etc, - "real world is getting in the way of the fun."
in addition to the fact that SWMinis was a type of 'gashapon' - with a primary audience etc... so people's tastes change etc.

We can compensate for some of these factors, by:
- speaking in other languages and reaching out to the star wars gamers from other languages;
swminis is popular in many other places, and not many may be proficient or aware of Bloomilk etc, which are predominantly in English.
We need more data about how many units of minis were made for Languages other than English, and what numbers of players there might be in other cultures. Google Analytics isn't complete for searching here...
- advertising SWMinis more to new people etc, (subliminals, placements on social media shows etc).
- having papercraft/pepakura options for people to start off their star wars minis journey/as valid mode of gameplay. Cost of entry is an often cited 'barrier' potential gamers have to playing the game, from my experience with public exhibition matches/running tournaments. I am happy to play SWMinis against papercraft tokens or models, provided they are scotchguarded or kept away from sources of moisture

I believe SWMinis is a great game - as good as W40K or Chess,
it's a great game because people from all different ages, genders, cultures and backgrounds can play - everyone can have fun, 8 to 808-years-of-age (i'm sure that Peter Cushing would play SWMinis), differentlyabled,... people can have fun!
the SWMinis game as with chess, encourages good sportspersonship and conduct, is in part a collaborative game
and the best bit?, SWMinis encourages math skills passively with students/players.

So, hopefully bloomilk and SWMinis will continue to thrive long into the future

I agree with what Deri said above - people should be able to walk up to the game from their kitchen table without the core rules changing. Or walk in after a 5 year absence.



Special rules tournaments are great. I've run a few squadbuilding contests in the past. Google for my name, BlooMilk and either "Toe-to-Toe" or "VSBL". They were special squadbuilding contests that never turned into acutal games, but a tournament would have been fun.

We also had the Massive Campaigns. Those were a lot of fun, and we were going to have another one last fall but the Legends Tournament started. (Google "FlyingArrow BlooMilk Forgotten Battles" or "FlyingArrow BlooMilk Before Endor".) We postponed it until Legends ended, not realizing that the tournament was more of a league and rana long time. And then the next one started up shortly thereafter. At this point, I'm not sure if the primary movers for the Massive Campaign are still on board.



I don't want to think about when what piece came out. That's great for sealed or a draft or a special rules tournament, but for the main tournaments I'd expect a filter implemented into the squadbuilder, which (while it would be easy) we just don't have.

this line of reasoning is why we can never separate ouselves from a company that left 5 or so years ago. It truly is silly. New people would not have to learn WotC rules, thye just learn Star Wars mini's rules.
We are now in charge of SWM, we CAN do whatever we want with it.
Abused rules ought to be changed, its not that difficult a concept.

Secondly
The presumption that it will cause a "domino effect" of people whining about other rules is also flawed. It makes the presumption that we are all selfish. If a rule is silly and everyone knows its silly (mouse droid and lightsaber) than it can easily be changed.

Now for a different rule to be changed that might be harder.
For isntance, Jen'ari just had a rather large discussion about how people use ugnauhgts to force targeting for things like force lightning, he thinks it is silly that Darth Sidious has to target a two foot tall, no threat ugnaught when there is Luke Skywalker 2 feet away with a lightsaber about to kill him. He brought up his points and was shot down. He didnt whine about it. He just went about his business.
However, if he had garnered a lot of interest in it and the vast majority thought the same way, maybe something would have happened.

The possibilities for change are endless. I really do not understand the idea that changing a stupid rule would be so difficult, can anyone explain it to me? lets focus on the mouse droid rule.

Has anyone sat down and asked the simple question:
Did WotC get this right?

In some very few instances the answer is no. and as men (women) when we find something that is not right, we can fix it.

Core rules like core beliefs are up for change when needed. its a living game.


Everyone is so worried that this game is so hard to play that new players cant figure it out. Let me ask you, was it really that hard? because in reality i started playing mtg at tournaments when i was 10 years old and did well. My 12 year old brother made it to the finals of a tournament. This game is no harder. it can be picked up with ease.

Right now we are at a point where we can do what usually happens in life and talk about things and things we have tried or things we have suggested, or we can make an action plan and get to work.

I think everyone is on board with a specials tournament. Lets start there. Anything going on in June? I say we make a specials league starting in June. We make it have the restriction of a 12 character max to your squad, no activation control, and 1 character with override. My suggestion at least others chime in.
Rules: can we change squads each game if we desire? i think its awesome to do that.
Now we have to determine what sets (v-sets, WotC, and Legends) can be legal.
Now we have to set a format:
The Legends tournament format is really cool.
$10 entry fee
round robin (guaranteed number of games), the top 4 in points (2 wild cards depending on numbers) play a semi-final tournament. winner gets a prize of $50 left over money goes to the community for whatever we do with money, maybe gencon prize support or something i don't know.