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The end of Viable and the rise of Grand Master Flash Options
owaller3
Posted: Sunday, June 7, 2009 3:17:24 AM
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http://bloomilk.com/Squads/View.aspx?ID=42961

--Grand Master Flash--
115 Grand Master Luke Skywalker
9 General Dodonna
12 Mouse Droid x4
12 Ugnaught Demolitionist x4
(148pts. 10 activations)

I posted this build today and It will trounce Viable if played correctly. It doesn't seem totally original but the way to play it has been floating around in my head for a couple of months.

The key is to build up a couple of rounds of force points and position Luke within 14 of your target and then use him late round as a magic missile. This would mean he can take out just about any piece on the board if he bases and wins initiative. So he could base the Emperor late round and twin him, force defense his lightning then the next round kill him. There isn't much Dash or Vader could do. Vader could get off a grip and Dash could try and shoot him and with all the fodder in this squad you could position Mouse droids so Vader can't grip and Dash wastes shots. Once the Emperor's down you can Base Vader and tear him apart in two rounds.

I believe this same strategy can be applied to almost any squad including GOWK. If you're playing against a Boba BH squad don't give him any shots for a couple of rounds save up FP and go right at him. All you need is 1 initiative roll and he's done. If you lose initiative and its a bothan noble build run away otherwise pursue and put another 40 on him. This way you expose yourself to 4 shots max if you lose init 2 times in a row.

I am going to play test this squad starting next week. I will try to run it against most of the the Tier 1 stuff and post the results here.

If you like it please rate it.
Eroschilles
Posted: Sunday, June 7, 2009 3:36:17 AM
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I like it, but I think the same number points of OG vong or JH vong could destroy this squad. Their one threat would be luke and they could thud bug him. One vong squad not very competitive could probably kill luke pretty well. I submit that this squad could do such a feat, although it is pretty bad:

--Kill Luke--
78 Yuuzhan Vong Ossus Guardian x3
21 Yuuzhan Vong Shaper
19 Yomin Carr
11 Advance Agent, Officer
6 Advance Scout
6 Mouse Droid x2
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3
(150pts. 12 activations)

I do like your squad though. If you fight vong though, you are in trouble, even with djem so mastery.
owaller3
Posted: Sunday, June 7, 2009 4:00:15 AM
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I think if played conservativlely enought using a run in run out strategy you can pick the Vong apart without much trouble. Just work the support over first and since you can only use FP for movment the Vong will have to chase you. I can see an unlucky thud bug being a problem but their would need to be alot of those inorder for the Vong to take down Luke. Also seeing that Yomin Carr, the Advance Agent Officer and the Scout are the only 3 with thud bug the odds of this are minimal. I can take out the Advance Agent Officer on the way in. The Vong would need to not only win initiative but also have a fellow thud bugger within range to thud bug and I would have to fail the save. Even if this happens they would still need to have some heavy hitters within range to do decent damage. Either way I like lukes odds against it and will try it out soon and post results.
Eroschilles
Posted: Sunday, June 7, 2009 4:13:22 AM
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Um, usually vong are played fairly close together, so runing in and out is going to provoke attacks of oppurtunity from the characters you are running by to attack your target. You are not goiing to run in and out in a single turn, so you will have to base one to kill it. The others all gang up on luke as soons as they are able. The OGs have Razorbug, so I if they have line of sight they have a 50% chance of killing some one on your team or damaging them.

If luke bases an OG and loses the next initiative, luke just lost eighty health from 1 OG. Without cunning, it's still 60 dmage with 9s or higher.

But this is a good squad nonetheless. You make up on low activations with dodonna and all the scrubs, but the vong who are immune to all of lukes force powers and can reduce the damage with a save of 6 are going to be a problem.

I might borrow your squad even sometime at my LGS b/c I think it'll be fun to play.
Tirade
Posted: Sunday, June 7, 2009 6:23:30 AM
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Another reason I would consider running Leia with Luke. Yes, your activation count hurts, but Luke gets free re-rolls. He wouldn't be in as much trouble against the Vong.
swmimperial130
Posted: Sunday, June 7, 2009 6:31:25 AM
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Don't use thud bugs, use razorbugs! or use FP 40....
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:54:01 AM
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Tirade wrote:
Another reason I would consider running Leia with Luke. Yes, your activation count hurts, but Luke gets free re-rolls. He wouldn't be in as much trouble against the Vong.


I really don't like limiting my activations for the off chance that I face Vong. Even if I face Vong I don't think I will have too much trouble. While Leia would help out she would be too limiting because she needs to be within 6 and with her in the build that leaves 3 slots for door control and mouse droids. Thats far too few to be effective.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 2:28:51 AM
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Eroschilles wrote:
Um, usually vong are played fairly close together, so runing in and out is going to provoke attacks of oppurtunity from the characters you are running by to attack your target. You are not goiing to run in and out in a single turn, so you will have to base one to kill it. The others all gang up on luke as soons as they are able. The OGs have Razorbug, so I if they have line of sight they have a 50% chance of killing some one on your team or damaging them.

If luke bases an OG and loses the next initiative, luke just lost eighty health from 1 OG. Without cunning, it's still 60 dmage with 9s or higher.

But this is a good squad nonetheless. You make up on low activations with dodonna and all the scrubs, but the vong who are immune to all of lukes force powers and can reduce the damage with a save of 6 are going to be a problem.

I might borrow your squad even sometime at my LGS b/c I think it'll be fun to play.


You also need to understand that I can deny you the win by simply killing a few of your support pieces and then run away since Luke is 115 pts. With Master Speed and renewal 2 there is no way you can catch me (that's 24 movement). I will reiterate again how I can run in late round after you have activated everything and put 40dmg on any of your support pieces and then if I win inititiative or save the thud bug, kill off the said piece and run away and hide. Sure you can bunch up all of your pieces but that might just entice me to put 120 dmg on the piece or pieces that are adjacent. Or I might just run away allowing the Aoos and if you hit, Djem So Style Mastery for 60 dmg each hit. The fact that Luke cannot use lightsaber defense or reroll attacks or saves is not a huge deterent to this squad. Luke has an awsome attack matched with awsome speed. Vong can beat this squad with some really unlucky rolls on Lukes part. But the odds of facing this Vong squad matched with really unlucky rolls is so small that it doesn't make sense to give up on this squad because of it. Against any other squad Luke will just pound them into the dirt. I will test your squad against mine and we will see the results. Anything else is just pure conjecture.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 2:47:30 AM
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swmimperial130 wrote:
Don't use thud bugs, use razorbugs! or use FP 40....


1st you would need alot of razorbugs to take down Luke. 2nd against FP40 Luke bases FP40 user late round after they have activated putting 40dmg on them. Then the next round regardless of initiative either the FP40 user tries to FP40 which Luke Force Defenses or takes Aoo for another 40 dmg to run away and not FP40 because Luke will just Force Defense it. Then Luke activates and bases again and puts another 40 dmg on it. The best case scenario I can see with a FP40 squad is putting 80dmg on Luke but then both Hoth pilot and VAR will be dead. And that is if you get lucky with initiative. If luke gets lucky you are doing 0 dmg as luke will base Hoth pilot late round put 40dmg on win initiative twin again for the kill master speed twice if necessary to base VAR. VAR becomes useless as all he can do is swing and run which triggers DSSM which he will take 60dmg to lukes 0 since he can lightsaber defense. Luke wins initiative bases VAR again does 40 dmg. Now VAR cannot move or attack since he will die if he does. If he sits there he dies as well. I have already described the other scenario with Viable above.
IG-108
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 2:53:01 AM
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I would like to try and come up with something that could defeat this squad easily, but when I think about it, I'm sure you can think of how Luke will beat whatever I think up. It's a great squad, especially if you're playing it the way you described.
Just one question. Could Count Dooku of Serrano pose a potential threat if he bases Luke? Of course, Luke could probably just take an attack of opportunity and escape Dooku, but one on one melee against Makashi might be a little tough.
sol
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:59:13 AM
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IG-108 wrote:
I would like to try and come up with something that could defeat this squad easily, but when I think about it, I'm sure you can think of how Luke will beat whatever I think up. It's a great squad, especially if you're playing it the way you described.
Just one question. Could Count Dooku of Serrano pose a potential threat if he bases Luke? Of course, Luke could probably just take an attack of opportunity and escape Dooku, but one on one melee against Makashi might be a little tough.

Makashi doesn't do anything to DSSM. It can possibly help Dooku of Sorenno avoid some damage, Luke is twin attacking. Dooku's FL will damage Dooku if he is based, and if he is based, then Luke with Triple Twin him, with odds being what they are, putting 60 or more on Dooku. If Dooku ever thinks about hitting Luke with his Lightsaber, i would probably take the damage and DSSM for 60 unless it meant Luke dying due to other damage.
LoboStele
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 4:39:24 AM
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Test games have already been played. Luke dies a fast and painful death to the CURRENT Vong squads that are top tier. So, this isn't even including the newer pieces we'll be getting in JA. It doesn't matter if Luke can run 12, hit something, then run away the next round. On average, he only does 10 damage to a Vong each time he hits them. Obviously, getting some Djem So saves in there helps (not sure if you can re-roll those saves against Vong...will have to check on that one). But here's typically how it works.

Luke runs in at the end of a round and hits a Vong JH twice, for likely only 20 damage because of Crab Armor. If Luke wins init, he hits that same Vong with Triple/Twin, putting at least 60 on him, and killing him.

Now, though, Luke is stuck in one place for the rest of that round. Two other Vong JHs come up and wail on Luke. They are a +13 with JH, and probably have Wicket backing them up, so they only need 6's to hit. They're also doing 30 damage, plus Poison, so odds being what they are, they probably put between 90-120 damage on Luke. That's just from 2 pieces. Now, the other Vong, hiding behind the JHs, namely the Shaper and Yomin Carr probably, throw Spit Poison attacks, for another 20 damage total (50/50 odds). Now, Luke probably got some Djem so attacks against the JHs, so he probably put 30-60 damage on each one. IF Luke is lucky enough to win init again, he can kill one, maybe both of the JHs with a Double/Twin. But now he's stuck sitting in the open once again, and then Yomin and the Shaper can spit poison him, again, probably doing 20 damage. So, let's count it up. Even if the odds are working against the Vong, Luke has probably taken 130 damage at this point (90 from JHs, 40 from two rounds of Spit Poison). If things are running statistically average, Luke is dead already. And losing just 1 of those inits changes the whole game, because then one of those JHs gets to activate and hit Luke twice more before Luke gets to activate.

It may not play out like that every single game, but it'll be pretty close to it. And this scenario here isn't even considering the possibilities of the JHs sitting a bit away and just tossing Spit Poison like crazy, forcing Luke to always move and only do Twin, instead of getting his massive Triple/Twin attacks. And if you choose to run away with Luke, well, you'll have to come back eventually, because the Vong will just camp in gambit then.

I've seen a couple test games, and sure, GMLS will work great against some builds, but he isn't the beast that everyone needs to fear, at least not at 150. At 200 you can build enough support with him to make him a Tier 1 piece, but I really don't think he'll attain that level at 150 right now.
Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 4:51:43 AM
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The djem so is only going to do 50 damage, not 60 as the bonus is only applied to the first of the twin.

I doubt luke will be able to run up and kill a support fig of the squad without being hurt. If he kills one, then runs away, you don't deny the win as each vong is only worth up to 5 rounds in gambit, which you are basically surrendering to get away alive with luke. All the player with the vong has to do is get line of sight to anyone on your team to get those razorbugs flying. If anyone besides luke or dodonna are is the closest legal target, they have a 50% chance of dying. Picking off your activation pieces early is going to make it harder for your late activating majic bullet to be effective. Putting any damage, even if its only 10, on luke is going to help in the long run when he finally bases a vong. If he takes 3 or more razorbugs, it'll only take 2 OGs to kill him.

I still like your squad, I just do not agree with your assesment that luke has a near-sure win against a vong squad.
zerg
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 5:36:19 AM
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I think this squad is one of the best GMLS at 150pts. Not sure it will own a Rebel Pushy Cannon though.
perk9600
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 6:38:25 AM
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owaller3 wrote:


You also need to understand that I can deny you the win by simply killing a few of your support pieces and then run away since Luke is 115 pts. With Master Speed and renewal 2 there is no way you can catch me (that's 24 movement). I will reiterate again how I can run in late round after you have activated everything and put 40dmg on any of your support pieces and then if I win inititiative or save the thud bug, kill off the said piece and run away and hide. Sure you can bunch up all of your pieces but that might just entice me to put 120 dmg on the piece or pieces that are adjacent. Or I might just run away allowing the Aoos and if you hit, Djem So Style Mastery for 60 dmg each hit. The fact that Luke cannot use lightsaber defense or reroll attacks or saves is not a huge deterent to this squad. Luke has an awsome attack matched with awsome speed. Vong can beat this squad with some really unlucky rolls on Lukes part. But the odds of facing this Vong squad matched with really unlucky rolls is so small that it doesn't make sense to give up on this squad because of it. Against any other squad Luke will just pound them into the dirt. I will test your squad against mine and we will see the results. Anything else is just pure conjecture.


How are you running 24?

How are you doing 60 with DSSM?

Eroschilles
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 6:47:48 AM
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention that master speed doesn't stack. So you could use master speed to move twelve and attack, and then use move faster for another two since gmluke has motf 2 for 14 and attack. Or for 20 and not attack. His speed is quite amazing as long as he's willing to spend the force points, but its not as good as you originally thought.
perk9600
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 7:26:11 AM
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Eroschilles wrote:
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that master speed doesn't stack. So you could use master speed to move twelve and attack, and then use move faster for another two since gmluke has motf 2 for 14 and attack. Or for 20 and not attack. His speed is quite amazing as long as he's willing to spend the force points, but its not as good as you originally thought.


This was my point.



IG-108
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 8:52:13 AM
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sol wrote:
IG-108 wrote:
I would like to try and come up with something that could defeat this squad easily, but when I think about it, I'm sure you can think of how Luke will beat whatever I think up. It's a great squad, especially if you're playing it the way you described.
Just one question. Could Count Dooku of Serrano pose a potential threat if he bases Luke? Of course, Luke could probably just take an attack of opportunity and escape Dooku, but one on one melee against Makashi might be a little tough.

Makashi doesn't do anything to DSSM. It can possibly help Dooku of Sorenno avoid some damage, Luke is twin attacking. Dooku's FL will damage Dooku if he is based, and if he is based, then Luke with Triple Twin him, with odds being what they are, putting 60 or more on Dooku. If Dooku ever thinks about hitting Luke with his Lightsaber, i would probably take the damage and DSSM for 60 unless it meant Luke dying due to other damage.

But Djem-So is still an attack back at Dooku, so can't he still block it with Makashi? And if it were me playing Dooku against GMLS, I wouldn't even attempt Force lightning because it'd be a waste of needed Force points.
joelker41
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:01:31 AM
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owaller3 wrote:
You also need to understand that I can deny you the win by simply killing a few of your support pieces and then run away since Luke is 115 pts. With Master Speed and renewal 2 there is no way you can catch me (that's 24 movement). I will reiterate again how I can run in late round after you have activated everything and put 40dmg on any of your support pieces and then if I win inititiative or save the thud bug, kill off the said piece and run away and hide. Sure you can bunch up all of your pieces but that might just entice me to put 120 dmg on the piece or pieces that are adjacent. Or I might just run away allowing the Aoos and if you hit, Djem So Style Mastery for 60 dmg each hit. The fact that Luke cannot use lightsaber defense or reroll attacks or saves is not a huge deterent to this squad. Luke has an awsome attack matched with awsome speed. Vong can beat this squad with some really unlucky rolls on Lukes part. But the odds of facing this Vong squad matched with really unlucky rolls is so small that it doesn't make sense to give up on this squad because of it. Against any other squad Luke will just pound them into the dirt. I will test your squad against mine and we will see the results. Anything else is just pure conjecture.



Wow...opinionated much?

Playing Luke, Dodonna, and filler is at best...as sub par idea and the execution of will be even less so.


There are about half a dozen game mechanics currently that Luke will get hosed by consistently:

1) Vong. As Lobo said the current Vong in the meta could take him down with decent rolls. Just imagine what he will have to fight through when it is Praetoriates with Cunning +20 and Shaper/Scarification/Poison attached to them? There's 1/3 of Luke's HP gone right there with no save!

Thud bug + Recon = useless GMLS. Heck just stick Talon Karrde in with two Ossus guardians in NR or throw in Lobot CLO and you could potentially make a 115 figure absolutely useless half the time if he can't roll a save 11.

2) Override. (may be less of an issue if Jedi are allowed to destroy doors [I believe that was rumored at one point?])

3) YoBuck. This would be quite possibly one of the hardest matchups for GMLS. YoBuck could clean out the trash activations while GMLS is locked in a room somewhere
Suddenly GMLS has to take out a 150 point swap/high mobility/towed Bodyguard squad with Door Control. Not to mention Rex. Don't even get me started on Jar Jar.

4) Push squads. With Luke being so horribly out activated after say round 3 (any Ugo/Mouse in LOS will be dead) GMLS will have to chase down two figures usually who could kill him in two rounds if they position correctly. Not to mention YoD Force Defensing Luke's Force Defense.

5) Vader SotJ. Would be incredibly boring and drawn out but I could see this getting really ugly for GMLS, he would take 40 back for every Twin of SotJ as opposed to Vader taking only 20/30. Vader also needs a 1 in Opportunist squads. Throw in a Bodyguard and they are virtually even.




Plus there are 6 characters we don't even know in JA left. None of us has any clue what JA has to offer left, or what the Meta will be so just calm down on the predictions lol.
mercenary_moose
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:31:41 AM
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I have to give owaller credit for making a playable 150 squad with Grandmaster Luke in it, and also including init and door control too. Very difficult to do. However, I don't like the fact that you don't even have the pretense of a supporting attacker in this squad. The next most dangerous piece you have is Dodonna, with a pitiful +3/10. Once Luke activates, your entire round is over and he is free for the opponents to work over. Worse, if you get Luke stunned by the opponent, it is an absolutely lost round; you can do nothing until the next init. I have to applaud owaller for crating a 150 GMLS sqaud, but I just don't think it's competitive.
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