This will be the last thread I post on in a very long time. I feel as if things are trying to go in the right direction so I should be patient and let things fall into place now. However, I still feel as if standard is far from being enjoyable in my personal tastes as of now, so I am looking forward to sets 11 and on with a lot of interest.

Looking at Set 10 you have Obi-Kin and Yaddle. These types of pieces, if used more, will NOT be good for the game. The pendulum CANNOT swing too far with sets 11 and 12. Range Defense Expert should not be overused as well. It is FAR better for Set 11 to help balance things and fall a tad short and let set 12 pick up the rest than set 11 go way too far and have to bring back the pendulum overswing.

I want to caution the designers in this, because I see a lot of people looking at those types of pieces and being super excited. It should never be one or two or small numbers of pieces that try and fix the meta, it needs to be a lot of individual pieces.

Pieces that are being designed cannot do too much for other people, imo, there is no need for all these commander effects that effect a lot of people and things. I think that that is not the way to go about making healthy meta shifts.

Secondly,

Balance Team, has there been a posted set of rules, mission, goals for the balance team?
Are they involved with the design process? They ought to be. The play testers ought to take unbalanced designs to the balance team to be tested. gets away from fanboy designs and bias designs. Also stops problems from coming out (CDO, Boba Fett AFH) before they come out. Checks and Balances for the Designers is always needed.

jak if your post is worthless, why post?

He did say this was the last thread he would post on. And if trolling is happening, it is going both ways: jen'ari was being pretty reasonable until you decided to be incredibly rude.

Crap like this is why discussions rarely stay civil around here. And also why they never amount to anything (other than a load of butthurt for everyone).

I'll bite - so what's the issue with Yaddle?
I don't see boosting CS/RotS era Jedi as shifting the meta...

look it up, like you just had to?
I know what it means lil boy.
you missed the reference.

he he.........charade you are

jak, I apologize if what I said was unfairly a knee-jerk angry reaction directed at you. It could have been and that would be unfair of me. My frustration is not with you, but with the crap anybody gets when a legit concern is brought up.

On a side note, I happen to have actually played with the LEGENDS pieces, and it does annoy me that anyone who speaks well of LEGENDS or someone related to LEGENDS (the great enemy of SWM ) gets contempt for it. We're ten posts in, and that has happened twice (once to me, which makes it worse).

I'm done talking in this thread. I don't have the time to waste.

set 10...

Woohoo!

Once again, valid points get lost in all the other crap.

Here's attempting to get this thread back on track. I frequently don't agree with Jen'ari, (The insinuation that Yaddle might have a negative impact to the meta, for example) but some comments made here do need to be considered since they are correct.



A lot of strong points here. There does seem to be a violent knee-jerk reaction happening amongst the community as well as the design team. Too many changes at one time create unintended effects. There are changes that need to happen, but some wise prudence does need to be shown. This should not be the time to attempt to "fix everything" in the game.

There should just be a very small number of changes implemented. The biggest of the issues, resolved in simple straightforward ways. Then we need to sit back and see how the meta unfolds after that.

I *think* that is what the balance team is aiming to do. I certainly hope so.

It is very important that Vset 11 and 12 designers do need to show restraint. Not only in not trying to push the meta too hard in the other direction, but also in creating new NPEs along the way. Restraint especially needs to happen with commander effects and SAs that give bonuses to other pieces.

With the vast number of pieces and interactions in this game now, designers have to be meticulous on who a CE or SA effetcs. Narrow the recipient group whenever possible. For the love of god don't make more that boost simply "allies" or even simply "followers". Explore subfactions, such as "Mandalorian Pilots" or "Lost Tribe". I really think this is key to design going forward.

I learned firsthand how difficult it is to try and cast a very narrow net of recipients when designing Yaddle. It took enormous effort, and it still wasn't perfect. But in the end it ended up catching 15 characters total. And most of those are some of the worst in the game. They still are probably not playable outside of fun games. The only potential issue I have seen is not who Yaddle boosts, but another character boosting Yaddle (but even that isn't going to be top tier). The list of recipients is below. By all means if you can find a broken combo - please enlighten us.

Coleman Trebor
Jax Pavan
Barriss Offee
The Dark Woman
Obi-Wan Kenobi, Padawan
Stass Allie
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Shaak Ti
Saesee Tiin
Aayla Secura
Etain Tur-Mukan
Plo Koon
Agen Kolar
Agen Kolar, Jedi Master
Kit Fisto

My bringing this up is simply to illustrate that it took enormous focused effort, and stubborn determination to find a solution when many encouraged "easier" but less satisfying answers.


In finishing (and more back to the main point), I will say the the pendulum is an apt analogy. It certainly is leaning in one direction, but it's not as extreme as most make it out to be. Giving a giant shove in the opposite direction isn't helpful. It only gives the pendulum more momentum and will probably then be shoved even harder back again. Too many changes and too many power pieces at once = giant shove. The best way to handle it now is to first SLOW THE MOMENTUM of the pendulum. Then give it a gentle tap in the other direction and try and get it to settle near the middle. This process takes patience and restraint.

I hope we can manage a reasonable amount of both. This community is not known for either.

Commenting on it only draws more attention to it. It's more productive to comment on what the thread is actually about and stimulate intelligent discussion.

(and btw - he is not)

true,
things are looking up now that several key pieces of errata have been made,
and extra super-dooper efforts have been made to make new abilities and pieces,
yet also strive to keep min-maxers from having too many arcane combos to pull from the majiks hat.

I also have to concur - Yaddle is a nice addition, and much balanced compared to our local leagues'
Yaddle with Morichro hehehe

I have mixed feelings about a QuiGon, when there were already 3 prior QuiGons
(and no rapport for Tahl? No Tahl, Siri Tachi etc...)

I have to also say, awesome additions to fringe subfactions,
and as much as I've already kavetched? (more, wanting to hear more about the exegesis of the NR-N99...), I'm liking the suite of options opening up for Separatists in Dynamic Duos, 200, 250 and the big leagues,
the 500pt + games (I don't play enough of those hehehe)

As to Melee being more of the competitive side again...
I don't think it's going to be easy to find that sweet spot again - there's too many direct damage abilities etc,
so, much like the real-world CQC wielders vs ranged attackers,
it's going to be hard without Attack X and movement/survivability, to get melee into battle without burning through force or being at half health...

It may also be difficult to curtail such 'esoteric' pieces as Lobot or Gha Nackht or Mouse Droids etc... from being major players in the game.
This is something I'm thankful the local circuits, at least these days, are more mellow about, so it's not a thing as much -
though I can empathise with those new to the game or who step back and think,
"Wait, I signed up for "Star Wars", not "Lobot + mice v Rotund Lizard + mice/battledroids"
Though, it seems the unofficial-official VSET team are keeping that squarely in mind, perhaps as a demotivational poster,
to prevent such tangents from happening in future?

Well done VSET team though,
and,
extra thanks for the increased sharing of behind the scenes,
the exegesis,
the what went into the final thing - because those are interesting to see prior variants,
and inspiring for other customs too.