TimmerB123

29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 21

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Mobile Attack

Affinity [A character named Talon Karrde may be in your squad regardless of faction]

Camaraderie [Allies whose names contain Rogue Squadron, Wedge or who count as Han Solo gain Relay Orders]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects]

Commander Effect

Whenever an enemy activates, that player must activate exactly 2 additional characters with the same name if possible. The additional activations do not count towards your number of activations allowed this phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief

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I liked part of the idea for Hive Mind (Raynar Thul - vset 9). We'll see how that shapes out - but I figured I'd throw this up since I had it.

It looks like Raynar is going to just end up boosting Killiks, and not effecting enemies' activations-per-phase. (Could be wrong, but that's what it looks like).

So I'm using the enemy only half here.

Paired with Talon (Fringe only), he gives a unique kind of activation control.


Relay orders since he was the communications guy, and cammaraderie because he was Karrde's contact point to Han and Rogue Squadron.

His other main mechanic is pulling old school Talon Karrde into any faction. Don't think it's broken at this point, but worth looking at.

TimmerB123 wrote:
Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 21

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Mobile Attack

Affinity [A character named Talon Karrde may be in your squad regardless of faction]

Camaraderie [Allies whose names contain Rogue Squadron, Wedge or who count as Han Solo gain Relay Orders]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects]

Commander Effect

Whenever an enemy activates, that player must activate exactly 2 additional characters with the same name if possible. The additional activations do not count towards their number of activations allowed this phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


I like this (no surprise, since we'd already talked about most of it :lol: ). Made a minor change to the wording on the CE, agree that the Affinity should be named, not name contains. The CE will probably still need a little more work, but the basic structure is there.

Cost feels about right to me, I think.


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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:50 pm
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if hive mind stays, i don't think you can keep the CE.

If hive mind becomes something else then this might be something to try.

I can't see Talon affinity being anything much to worry about. So you get disruptive for 40 odd points, HK is 33, brings disruptive and makes uber mice.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:53 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
if hive mind stays, i don't think you can keep the CE.


Agreed.

fingersandteeth wrote:
I can't see Talon affinity being anything much to worry about. So you get disruptive for 40 odd points, HK is 33, brings disruptive and makes uber mice.


Forgot HK. I kept thinking Nym.

I was thinking of rapport on original Talon as well.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:48 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
if hive mind stays, i don't think you can keep the CE.

If hive mind becomes something else then this might be something to try.


So, it sort of stayed.

Hive Mind [Each phase, after each of a player’s normal activations, that player activates 1 extra character with the same name, if able. Ignore this ability if this character has less than 5 Killik allies.]

That's what we're stuck with.

So - not sure where to go with Aves' CE.


I want him to be a unique form of activation control for Fringe only squads. I really like the idea of making the other player activate more . . .

I had a great idea a few weeks ago while I was not near a computer, but by the time I thought about it again I couldn't remember. Grrrr.

Open to suggestions.


Maybe this still works since Hive mind has the killiks clause.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:46 pm
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How about this for his CE. . .

When you squad contains only fringe characters, if no character on your squad (including this character) has line of sight to an enemy, the enemy must activate 1 additional character per phase.

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:36 pm
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I like it. Should probably add the "at the start of a phase" language (I.e. Tarkin), but the concept is very cool.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:02 pm
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LoS is a loose approximation of "action".

I think this is more directly tied to "action":

Quote:
CE:
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has not targeted or used an ability that deals damage to a character on your squad (including this character), they must activate one more character.


So now it is DIRECTLY tied to doing something TO THE ENEMY SQUAD. If you sit back, do another activation. If you're doing SOMETHING, play as normal.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:39 pm
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Even better :D


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:43 pm
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So a Ghent squad will now avoid action in order to burn the opponents activations?

It sounds odd, and like the Killik stuff it would need to be tried in order to understand how it works.

This could be used to stall
It could be used against you, i.e. i move , swap in youbuck/pawn other destroyer deep, no attacks made so have to activate 3rd guy, decimate ghents squad or key piece.

I'm not against the idea, but it may not end up doing what you want it to.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:12 am
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fingersandteeth wrote:
So a Ghent squad will now avoid action in order to burn the opponents activations?

It sounds odd, and like the Killik stuff it would need to be tried in order to understand how it works.

This could be used to stall
It could be used against you, i.e. i move , swap in youbuck/pawn other destroyer deep, no attacks made so have to activate 3rd guy, decimate ghents squad or key piece.

I'm not against the idea, but it may not end up doing what you want it to.


That is an excellent point.

So - let's make it do what we want.

Let's add it as an OPTION that Aves squad can force the opponent to do.



Quote:
CE:
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has not targeted or used an ability that deals damage to a character on your squad (including this character), you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.


Now it does what we want it to do. Either Aves opponent gets aggressive, or they activate quickly with no bonus for them.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:44 am
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So if we go this route with the CE - it has to be for all fringe only (too powerful combined with dodonna/san Hill/ozzel)

And if we make his main thing only good for all fringe - nobody will care about the cammeraderie and rapport stuff for Han/wedge/rogue squadron and Talon. It was all just there for flavor anyway.

Also - wanted to transfer Jam Frequencies from Ghent to Aves. I like the idea, but Ghent was stacked and Aves was slim. I could work for either since they both worked closely with Talon Karrde.

Also - since I dropped the cammeraderie (giving relay orders), I put on Coordinated Command instead.

Not sure what to think about cost now . . .

Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 21

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Mobile Attack

Coordinated Command [Allied Fringe commanders gain Relay Orders]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Jam Frequency [Enemies with Booming Voice lose Booming Voice. Enemies' commander effects with unlimited range become range 6]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects]

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has not targeted or used an ability that deals damage to a character on your squad (including this character), you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:19 am
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i think i would hate to play this piece.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:01 pm
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Regarding Jam Frequency - 'unlimited range' does not work - that is what Booming Voice does. You're wanting to turn rangeless (not currently a defined game term) CEs into range 6 CEs.

The correct way to state that is "without a range listed" (or something like that), but then, that is a small can of worms because adjacent is not a range, and CEs that affect the player also do not have a range (of course). It should pretty much be common sense, but we know that mostly doesn't apply in this game. ;)

All that to say, I'll need to think about the wording.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:05 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
Regarding Jam Frequency - 'unlimited range' does not work - that is what Booming Voice does. You're wanting to turn rangeless (not currently a defined game term) CEs into range 6 CEs.

The correct way to state that is "without a range listed" (or something like that), but then, that is a small can of worms because adjacent is not a range, and CEs that affect the player also do not have a range (of course). It should pretty much be common sense, but we know that mostly doesn't apply in this game. ;)

All that to say, I'll need to think about the wording.

I'm wondering if we should drop jam frequency all together. It's just hate, and a pain to word as well.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:37 pm
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OK - interesting suggestion from TJ:

Jam Transmission [Each enemy commander effects is suppressed except within 6 squares of the commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

They way it's worded, assuming they have booming voice, then it essentially gives the enemy coordinated command. In a way, I like that. It's not quite as harsh as what I had.

Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 21

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Mobile Attack

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [Each enemy commander effects is suppressed except within 6 squares of the commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects]

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has not targeted or used an ability that deals damage to a character on your squad (including this character), you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief
[/quote]

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:49 pm
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I think we're getting closer.


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LESHIPPY Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:37 pm
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I think killing activation control and booming voice in one piece is not a good idea.

Or am i read something wrong?

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:54 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
I think killing activation control and booming voice in one piece is not a good idea.

Or am i read something wrong?


Les I understand your point. It's interesting, I've gotten people extremely leary of this fig or really positive about it.

People have been begging to take a bite outta Mas since he debuted. But maybe that time is long past.

And for clarification - your statement is a slight oversimplification of both sides (although it is very close to the truth).

It doesn't kill activation control. They can still use it. It's just if they are not aggressive (no attacks, no targeting, no damage to you), then they may be forced by you to take an extra activation at the end of each phase.

So what that adds up to WITHOUT activation control is activating up to 50% faster when you are not engaging, and no change while engaging.

WITH activation control, you have to double your activations when you are not engaging, and no change while engaging.

So either way - there is a shut-off switch for the enemy - just engage.

And to not have it used against you in sneaky ways (as Deri pointed out) - it is now an option. The player controlling Aves could choose to have the enemy activate as normal.


As far as the booming voice kill - yes, but only to an extent. The way it is worded now, it is less severe. It did kill it dead before. Now if someone has it - it essentially reduces Booming Voice into Coordinated Command. You see instead of only counting the CE from the commander giving it - you can count ANY allied CE from ANY commander (exactly like Coordinated Command). So - it sure takes a bite out of it - but it's not a total F.U.



All that said - I do hear your point. I don't want it to just be the piece that @$$holes play. I don't want it to be the non-competitve piece that just occasionally screws certain competitive squads. I hate that.


So - how do we get it to be a very interesting option, and not just a pointless stick in their eye.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:12 am
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Side note -
I think I'd like to add Recon on him. It fits well for his character. And I think he should be closer to mid 20s cost.

Also - this idea was something meant for Ezra, but it doesn't look like it will fit there. It could also work here:

False Transmission [Choose an enemy within line of sight. This phase, that enemy does not block allies' movement and may not make attacks of opportunity.]

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:37 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has not targeted or used an ability that deals damage to a character on your squad (including this character), you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.



This CE is just reverse Dodonna. Its too easy for the Aves player to ensure avoiding contact and making the opponents activate an extra activation until its beneficial to the Aves player not too.

If i was playing this piece, i would have lots of acitvations and make the opponents activate 2-3 at a time during the first 2 rounds until i can get my strike off. If the opponents are forced to act aggressively then I stop giving them the extra activations.

I don't know how to alter it but right now it feels like a CE that will not be met with much fanfare and is actually re-purposing activation control in another guise.

why not simplify it and give him Black Ops when its a fringe only squad? That hits activation control without giving the Aves team activation control themselves which is what he currently gets.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:35 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has not targeted or used an ability that deals damage to a character on your squad (including this character), you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.



This CE is just reverse Dodonna.


Not exactly. Dodonna let's you double the number of phases you have. This could allow you to compete with a high activation squad without activation control. But it's a less severe ratio. Dodonna gives you up to 100% more phases, while as proposed Aves CE forces the opponent to have up to 50% less phases (3 acts instead of 2). So the max of dodonna still is twice as bad as the max of this vs no activation control. Obviously if you are facing activation control - then they are even. But that's only because they brought activation control.

fingersandteeth wrote:
Its too easy for the Aves player to ensure avoiding contact and making the opponents activate an extra activation until its beneficial to the Aves player not too.

If i was playing this piece, i would have lots of activations


You just defined activation control in general. And yes, this was an attempt at activation control. But obviously it does need to be tweaked.

fingersandteeth wrote:
why not simplify it and give him Black Ops when its a fringe only squad? That hits activation control without giving the Aves team activation control themselves which is what he currently gets.


You can say the same thing for black ops. Have more activations and then you know you can out-activate. The game in general it's beneficial to have more activations.

The goal here is to allow a lower activation squad (with no hope of activation control - ie all fringe) the ability to compete with a higher activation squad. It's hard to do that without opening the door to couple it with high activations.

fingersandteeth wrote:
I don't know how to alter it but right now it feels like a CE that will not be met with much fanfare and is actually re-purposing activation control in another guise.


I read your first version of this paragraph, and I'm glad you changed it. Not the "piece played by assholes" part, I didn't care about that. But "re-purpsoing activation control in another guise" got me thinking. That's exactly right. But I wanted a more creative take, something like black ops, but NOT black ops. I'd rather leave that as a Mando thing.

So in general the big gripe is activation control. Specifically activating only 1 per phase. So why don't we hit that specifically? But not just nerf all activation control like Black Ops does.

Quote:
Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has [b activated only one character[/b], you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.


So if they activate less than 2, this gives you control to make them activate 2 (like normal) but never effect if they have someone to make them go three. But if they bring San Hill or Ozzel - it can be used against them too. Let their own CE come back to life when it's not opportune for them.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:39 pm
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Quote:

fingersandteeth wrote:
why not simplify it and give him Black Ops when its a fringe only squad? That hits activation control without giving the Aves team activation control themselves which is what he currently gets.


You can say the same thing for black ops. Have more activations and then you know you can out-activate. The game in general it's beneficial to have more activations.

The goal here is to allow a lower activation squad (with no hope of activation control - ie all fringe) the ability to compete with a higher activation squad. It's hard to do that without opening the door to couple it with high activations.


I'd say impossible for all the reasons you stated, its a core aspect of the game that is enhanced by Dodonna etc. If you allow someone to control their, or an opponents, activations above parity you just make an activation control piece.



Quote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
I don't know how to alter it but right now it feels like a CE that will not be met with much fanfare and is actually re-purposing activation control in another guise.


I read your first version of this paragraph, and I'm glad you changed it. Not the "piece played by assholes" part, I didn't care about that. But "re-purpsoing activation control in another guise" got me thinking. That's exactly right. But I wanted a more creative take, something like black ops, but NOT black ops. I'd rather leave that as a Mando thing.


The asshole part was actually in reference to what you posted a couple of posts back but re-reading it came off as being a dick so I altered it. I also realized that wasn't what was irking me as i've used activation control as much as anyone, what bothered me was it was just another way of controlling activations except by modifying the opponents activations rather than your own.
I think its the messing with the other squad that got my goat up mainly. Like you sit there and say, "activate one more, please", rather than "i will/must only activate one". There is as much down side to the CE (i.e. none) as with Dodonna's except its more annoying because Aves has control of your opponents activations. Its why I mentioned earlier that I would hate facing the piece.


Quote:
Quote:
So in general the big gripe is activation control. Specifically activating only 1 per phase. So why don't we hit that specifically? But not just nerf all activation control like Black Ops does.

Quote:
Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has activated only one character, you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.


So if they activate less than 2, this gives you control to make them activate 2 (like normal) but never effect if they have someone to make them go three. But if they bring San Hill or Ozzel - it can be used against them too. Let their own CE come back to life when it's not opportune for them.


I actually though of something similar but I wasn't sure if you were willing to go there because it really hammers activation control pieces. Its much nastier than Black ops to activation control because it allows you to control the opponents activations, however, now it ONLY affects dodonna, Ozzel, San and Tarkin. It essentially makes those pieces liabilities not just useless like Black Ops does.

Saying that, i would prefer this version to the one that gives Aves activation control over every squad he faces.

However, this could be left so that Aves can force someone (anyone) at the start of the round to activate 2 instead of the normal 1. Its a small chance to manipulate any squad you face but it could potentially be useful when activations are similar and its not so cumbersome as having the option every phase but does give the CE some use outside of smashing activation control.

It could even be left open so he can allow his squad to activate 2 but that may start to get too powerful without a reasonable stipulation.

Lastly, if you begin forcing people to activate 2 when they only want one, perhaps you can jack the Mando Tactician up with it and make squads that want to activate 3, activate 2. I think the Mando's could do with some counter pieces and the Tactician is right up there as one of their power tools.

regardless, i think this is a better direction than allowing him to force all squads to activate faster than they like in the early round phases.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:30 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:

Quote:
Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the end of each enemy phase, if the enemy has activated only one character, you can choose to have the enemy activate one more character.


Saying that, i would prefer this version to the one that gives Aves activation control over every squad he faces.

However, this could be left so that Aves can force someone (anyone) at the start of the round to activate 2 instead of the normal 1. Its a small chance to manipulate any squad you face but it could potentially be useful when activations are similar and its not so cumbersome as having the option every phase but does give the CE some use outside of smashing activation control.


Laura and I talked about that. I actually like that feature and would like to keep it. As you said - it allows a small advantage to use against any squad, but only in the spinning periods.

fingersandteeth wrote:

It could even be left open so he can allow his squad to activate 2 but that may start to get too powerful without a reasonable stipulation.


I'd rather not go that route.

fingersandteeth wrote:

Lastly, if you begin forcing people to activate 2 when they only want one, perhaps you can jack the Mando Tactician up with it and make squads that want to activate 3, activate 2. I think the Mando's could do with some counter pieces and the Tactician is right up there as one of their power tools.


That is an excellent point! so how about this:

Quote:
Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase.


or even for clarity (since it is a CE as opposed to an SA, and room is not a factor on his card:

Quote:
Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase,overriding Commander Effects that alter the number of their activations per phase.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:17 pm
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i am good with that CE

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:29 pm
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I'm also thinking if the opponent doesn't have activation control or booming voice that he's like the worst costed character ever.

I'm thinking we might need to give him Evade or some kind of protection if he's trying to use advanced warning.

We could also give him double and raise cost just a bit.

Thoughts?

Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 21

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Mobile Attack

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [Each enemy commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of a commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, overriding Commander Effects that alter the number of their activations per phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:06 pm
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I think this is better. Still not sure I am a fan. IMO i think it would be easier for game play purposes if the activation was per round instead of phase.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:06 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
I think this is better. Still not sure I am a fan. IMO i think it would be easier for game play purposes if the activation was per round instead of phase.


Very confused. I have no idea how this could work per round. Activations are counted per phase, but there is no way to limit it (or add or subtract it) in a round. At least not that has anything to do with this.

As written above, the CE will be pretty obvious when you will use it. My guess will be that the Aves player will just say "activate 2 until I say so"

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:50 am
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Yeah you are probably right.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:52 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Yeah you are probably right.


I wasn't trying to bowl over your response, I was just trying to undeerstand it better.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:28 pm
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Next sticky wikkit about this guy outside his CE

Jam Transmission -

As worded, this ability not only effects Booming Voice, but also innate boardwide effects.

I like the fact that we sort of give the enemy Pseuo Coordinated Command with it, which takes the sting off a bit.

But that said - do we want to just target Booming Voice, or do we want to effect all sit-at-the-back boardwide CEs?

It has been a major complaint about the game since Booming Voice came out. Doing SOMETHING to lessen either seems like it will be a good thing, but we need to find a reasonable balance.

If we target booming voice only, then it's useless outside of facing 3 factions (and not all of them will always have it).

But if it effects all boardwide CEs too, then the enemy will be forced to have their Commanders up in the action. All sit-in-the-back commanders will at least have to have another ally (another commander or someone with relay orders) to be within 6 of the action.

It isn't as bad as when Advanced Battle Meditation is on. Instead of a ysalimiri bubble, you have commander and relay orders bubbles. (GA Thrawn and Pelleaon are commanders anyway - so those two would remain the same ABM vs Jam Frequency).

But ABM is tempered by it costing 3 fps.

Thoughts?

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:36 pm
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I'm always in favor of making people bring their commanders up to play, personally.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:46 am
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Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 28

HP 70
Def 18
Att +9
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Double Attack; Mobile Attack
Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [Each enemy commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of a commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, overriding Commander Effects that alter the number of their activations per phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


Bumped cost up, added double and evade and +1 attack.

I feel like this will make him less likely of a "throw in" piece and more likely a piece you have to consciously build with.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:34 am
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Does the CE need to clarify that activations from combining fire don't count toward the "exactly two" activations?

Otherwise, I generally like the direction.


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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:45 am
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
Does the CE need to clarify that activations from combining fire don't count toward the "exactly two" activations?

Otherwise, I generally like the direction.


I wouldn't think so.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:22 pm
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One tweak suggestion
- I want to go all in on the all fringe. It feels like false transmission is the stronger
of his effects (stronger than his CE).

So perhaps we should have that effect be limited by only fringe.

Also makes it safer from being used again in other factions (which seems very dangerous)

Also - putting his attack back down - he'll virtually always have +4/+10 from Talon.
Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 28

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Double Attack; Mobile Attack
Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [When your squad contains only Fringe characters, each enemy commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of a commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, overriding Commander Effects that alter the number of their activations per phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


Thoughts?

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:25 pm
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I like it! Are we ready to PT?


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:02 pm
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I think so.

We'll learn a lot by the squads people build.

Also the general perception from the PT community. This will be met with polar responses I'm guessing, but we'll see if it's heavily weighed toward love or hate.

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

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Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:04 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I think so.

We'll learn a lot by the squads people build.

Also the general perception from the PT community. This will be met with polar responses I'm guessing, but we'll see if it's heavily weighed toward love or hate.


Yep. At a certain point, it's time to let the hive mind take a crack at it (so to speak). PT.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:47 pm
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Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 28

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Double Attack; Mobile Attack
Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [When your squad contains only Fringe characters, each enemy commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of a commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.

Commander Effect
When your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


PT

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:25 pm
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Deri or Les -

Let's tweak it or send it to PT

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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:39 pm
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:53 am
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added


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:09 pm
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Added Unique (whoops!)

I'm sure QC would have caught that - but thanks to Jak for catching it sooner!

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:01 pm
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Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 28

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Double Attack; Mobile Attack
Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [While your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, each enemy commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of a commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


Changed it to include independent outfit for Jam Frequency. I also added willing to serve so he will actually synergize with Karrde for the movement. (Can't believe I missed that before!)

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:01 am
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:02 am
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:36 pm
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I forgot he can get GMA now. That's a bit too good in fringe (with Karrde) for his cost and abilities.

I want him to have SOME sort of ranged defense. I guess we could go stealth.

Otherwise we need to lose double and drop cost a few points?

Thoughts?

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

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Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:18 pm
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I'd say lose Double and lower the cost (maybe to 24). Something about Stealth doesn't really feel right on this guy.

ETA: maybe Defensive Stance?


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:29 am
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24 is what I was thinking as well. (Defensive stance was not a bad idea, but I think I still like Evade here.)

Drop Double, 24 cost.

Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack
Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmission [While your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, each enemy commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of a commander or an enemy with Relay Orders.]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round), you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


PT

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:07 am
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Ok. I agree he doesn't really need double. PT.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:11 am
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Bump for Deri or Les

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:20 am
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:53 am
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updated


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:16 pm
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This guy seemed to function pretty well in playtests.

I'm not really seeing the argument that it promotes swarms. Why would this guy, as is, promote swarm play?

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:51 pm
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I guess the argument is that playing Fringe, you know you will be outactivated (in large part due to facing act control and not having any), so you build accordingly.

If you didn't have to worry about ozzel/dodonna/san hill (which essentially this does), then you have every opportunity to be the one who outactivates.

It did concern me when one of the formost all fringe players in the game tells me he'd rate the piece a 10 and an auto-inlcude. Also that he would immediately build all fringe squads differently, he'd start doing it with very high activations.

Now would that be BETTER than the top all fringe squads that we have right now? I'm not sure.

Better to bring it up and discuss it, to be sure.

I know I've kind of gone around in circles on this here, but act control is not the same as anti-act control. If someone does not have act control, then his CE does almost nothing.

It boils down to hate for dodonna/ozzel/san hill. I for one am actually ok with that.


All in all - let's just bump his points up to be safe. 2 very new things going on with this piece, batter safe than sorry.

28 pts?

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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:32 pm
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what would you say TheHutts squad is like?
--Aves Test--
42 Embo
32 Talon Karrde, Information Broker
31 Tyber Zann
28 Aves
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
27 Lobot
12 Gha Nachkt
(200pts. 7 activations)

29 to be sure?

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TimmerB123 Online
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:56 am
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Then you just swap Tyber for Marn.

Is this really worse than Jake's NPE squad with Jabba Galactic Criminal (60pt), Aurra Sing Assassin, Cad Bane BH, San Hill, Lobot, Gha?

His version has the same concept, but actually has act control, so it outactivates that many more squads.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:20 am
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Gha is not as effective as Marn as a fighter. So it would lower the squads effectiveness.

This squad comes with far more tricks than Jakes squad. Disruptive, movement, booming voice counter.

Lets PT is at 28 with the current stats you posted.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:48 am
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All right. PT at 28.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:22 am
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PT

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:13 pm
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:09 pm
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Another way to tone down this character: Jam transmission effects both sides. That way you can't cut off the deep strike and still have your own.

It would look something like this:

*Jam Transmission [While your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, each enemy and allied commander effect is suppressed except within 6 squares of an ally of that character with Relay Orders. Enemy and allied commanders gain relay orders]

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

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Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:11 pm
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I have been racking my brain trying to figure out a "happy medium" for his CE. I want it to be somewhat anti San Hill/Dodonna/Ozzel.

The CE we had is that - but it may be too much.

So what about if it shuts off after Aves activates. So an enemy can threaten Aves and make him moce to shut it off for that round. It encourages engagement more this way.

Something like this:

Quote:
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round) until this character activates, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase.

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:19 pm
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I really like that! Particularly with the tweak to Jam Transmission. Feels like it's getting close to a sweet spot.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:20 am
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Toned down CE by having it shut off after Aves activates.

Made Jam Transmissions work against both squads. (also note I made Transmission plural)

Dropped cost to 26 (considering above 2 changes)



Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 26

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack. Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmissions [Ignore unless your squad contains only Fringe characters and characters with Independent Outfit. Enemy and allied commander effects are suppressed except within 6 squares of an enemy or ally with Relay Orders, respectively. Enemy and allied commanders gain Relay Orders]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round) until this character activates, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

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Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:23 am
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Cool. PT.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:29 am
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One more detail - with the proposal that Jam Transmissions effects both sides, do we need the fringe only stipulation? The CE needs it for sure, but is there a broken combo with Jam Transmissions while it effects both squads?

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:02 am
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Not that I can think of, but seems prudent.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:10 am
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Card space and the inherent verbosity of the ability are factors against it. Prudence is a factor for it. I'd love to really try and find a non-fringe squad that would be better with Aves (as is proposed) than without.

It's kind of like Talon Karrde - can you use him in a non-fringe squad for disruptive? Sure, and it has been attempted and has had some (but not great) success. I'd love to have it end up like that, and have that option, but ultimately have it not reach tier 1 outside of fringe.

But - if unsure we should restrict it.

The main reason it was restricted in the first place was the thought of a character with boardwide CEs and/or Booming voice pairing it with Aves, and then having a disproportionate advantage. Now that would be impossible, so it seems like fair game again.

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Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:14 am
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I fail to see how that tones it down. He will just go last every round.

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:18 am
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I can't imagine spending the points if you're not also getting the activation control CE. Especially since it also gives enemy commanders Relay Orders, I guess I can't see even a disruptive-heavy faction abusing it.

As far as toning it down, it basically just gives the opponent options to try to get around it. They can try to threaten him to get him to activate earlier than intended. Or they can try to Jolt him.

Advanced Warning ensures that he'll be in at least some jeopardy, so it isn't a sitting in the back spinning sort of situation.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:27 am
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Right. And even if you activate him last every round, then you are probably not utilizing him in the best way. He is a decent little mobile attacker, and as Laura mentioned he may want to line up for advanced warning. So you have tough choices, as opposed to having your cake and eating it too. It's a slight tone down, but a tone down none-the-less

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:52 pm
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Removed Jam transmissions fringe only stipulation. Not needed when it effects both sides

Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 26

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack. Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmissions [Enemy and allied commander effects are suppressed except within 6 squares of an enemy or ally with Relay Orders, respectively. Enemy and allied commanders gain Relay Orders]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round) until this character activates, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


PT

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:00 pm
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:46 pm
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:20 pm
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Lots of great focused conversation about Aves.

Really like this new direction for Jam Transmission:

*Jam Transmissions [At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 enemy commander. Until the end of the round, enemies are not succeptible to the selected character's commander effects unless they are within 6 squares of that commander or an ally of that character with Relay Orders]

Watched a PT between Laura and Jason where we played it this way. We all really liked it.

It's more like he has a couple ways to annoy the enemy and mess up their plans, but it's not too good or broken.


Laura said she really liked the way it felt playing him. She still lost, but it was a game.

Quote:
29/45

Aves
Fringe
Cost 26

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack. Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

*Jam Transmissions [At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 enemy commander. Until the end of the round, enemies are not succeptible to the selected character's commander effects unless they are within 6 squares of that commander or an ally of that character with Relay Orders]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round) until this character activates, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


PT

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:47 pm
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yeah, i think this is the sweet spot

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:17 am
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:53 am
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Mildly nervous about Jam transmission being more abusive in other factions.

I like the fact that it can be used in other factions, I don't want to Nerf it altogether (as we do his CE, which is necessary).

A simple solution that actually makes sense on this piece, is rapport for Talon.

We raise his cost five, and give him this:

Rapport 5 [Costs 5 less when in the same squad as a character Whose name contains Talon Karrde]

Thoughts?

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Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:02 am
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Unless you specifically want him played in NR, why not named Talon Karrde, Information Broker?

Rapport seems like a fine idea. I was also thinking the best thing was just some added incentive to play with Talon.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:19 am
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I thought about that, and I actually like that it works with both.

Nobody plays NR Talon. I feel like you are already paying the 5 extra points to do that combo (because NR Talon is at least 5 overcosted).

If you really wanted to play him in NR, you'd be better off with R2po and Aves, even without getting the rapport.

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Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:24 am
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Ok, that's fine. Just wanted to bring it up.


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TimmerB123 Online
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:30 am
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Also - fair point from Bryan about the name.

Thoughts on:

Aves, communications officer
Communications Officer Aves
Chief Aide Aves

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:35 am
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The 1st one, so the set number doesn't change.

Or variations around that theme, just have his name 1st

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:40 am
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I like the first, as well.

Otherwise, Aves, Second-in-Command


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:44 am
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good point about list order.

Laura, you're great at this. I'll trust your choice.

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Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:47 am
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Let's go with Aves, Communications Officer. Suits his abilities.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesxPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:52 am
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perfect.

next item on him - jam transmissions. Do we like it as effecting recieving ALL CEs from 1 commander, or would it be better only 1 CE (for example the Yammosk stealing swap but not opporunist from Mit'thrawn)?

Obvisouly the former is stronger, but in some cases it won't matter. I'm asking because if we're not confident, then we should err on the side of caution.

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:15 pm
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I think I would prefer just a single CE. That fits the precedent with the Yammosk, as you pointed out, so I think that would be more intuitive for people.


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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:23 pm
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Added rapport. Upped cost

Changed name.

Jam Transmission only for 1 CE (pending QC wording)

Quote:
29/45

Aves, Communications Officer
Fringe
Cost 31

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack. Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Jam Transmission [At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 enemy commander effect. Until the end of the round, the chosen commander effect is suppressed farther than 6 squares from that commander or its allies with Relay Orders]

Rapport 5 [This character costs 5 less when in the same squad as a character whose name contains Talon Karrde]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round) until this character activates, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


PT

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:37 pm
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Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:16 pm
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I feel like this guy is about where we want him. Jam Transmission is strong, but balanced because of the timing of the CE. I think QC is still working out whether the second part of the CE is really necessary, but that's probably a detail that can be worked out in the QC forum.

That said, I know there are concerns about using him with some sort of swarm squad, which is not the intent, so how would we feel about bumping the cost even a couple more points?

Quote:
29/45

Aves, Communications Officer
Fringe
Cost 34

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack. Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Jam Transmission [At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 enemy commander effect. Until the end of the round, the chosen commander effect is suppressed farther than 6 squares from that commander or its allies with Relay Orders]

Rapport [This character costs 5 less when in the same squad as a character whose name contains Talon Karrde]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, at the start of each enemy phase (including the first phase of the round) until this character activates, you may declare that the enemy has to activate exactly two characters that phase, and you may choose to suppress enemy Commander Effects that alter their number of activations that phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


[/quote]

Raised cost to 34. Took out the "5" from Rapport (I don't think it's necessary).

Done?


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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:24 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
I think QC is still working out whether the second part of the CE is really necessary, but that's probably a detail that can be worked out in the QC forum.


It's not so much a wording/rules detail; it has functional implications. There seems to be more intended than just forcing the opponent to go 2, or doing nothing. The first part will not work without suppressing the opponents act control CEs. It seems as though the 2nd part is so you can make Tarkin/Mando Tac. go 1 in the first phase of the round.

The simplest way (for wording) to handle it is force 2 or do nothing. The subtleties of having both parts will be confusing at best. I just wanted to mention this here in case not all designers are looking at the QC discussion.


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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:29 pm
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That's fine. It's worth having it here so everyone can think it through. I personally have no objection to what has been proposed --exactly two, period.


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TimmerB123 Online
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:01 pm
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Fine with the cost raise.

Forcing Mando Tact/Tarkin to go with 2 on the first in instead of three (but not 1) is fine with me.

If I understand that correctly.

Beyond that - I like the idea of facing a squad without activation control and having a small consation prize of making them activate 2 in the first phase when there's no action going on.

This part would remain the same, correct?

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:33 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Fine with the cost raise.

Forcing Mando Tact/Tarkin to go with 2 on the first in instead of three (but not 1) is fine with me.

If I understand that correctly.

Beyond that - I like the idea of facing a squad without activation control and having a small consation prize of making them activate 2 in the first phase when there's no action going on.

This part would remain the same, correct?


Sure, it can stay.


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FlyingArrow Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:44 pm
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The other option for simplification would be to just make it a Black Ops CE (optional and only until he activates).

It comes down to whether you want the option to force the Tarkin/Mandos to activate 1 in the first round (Black Ops-ish version would accomplish that) or the option to force anyone - including Tarkin/Mandos - to activate 2 in the first round (what swinefeld described).

Making both of those options available at the same time gets too convoluted.


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TimmerB123 Online
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:53 am
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The whole point was to make it different from black ops.

Instead of making it even ground against opponents with act control, it actually can hurt them more.

Perhaps I am missing some subtlety.

In the way TJ just described it, we don't need both. Just the second scenario is fine.

Can optionally force any squad, regardless of CEs, to activate exactly 2, including the first phase. Until Aves activates.

No need to force "up to 3 activations in 1 phase" down to 1. Down to 2 is fine.

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TimmerB123 Online
Post subject: Re: 29. AvesPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:29 pm
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Used the latest wording in the QC for the CE.

There may be some wording tweaks, but I think intent is clear at this point.

Quote:
29/45

Aves, Communications Officer
Fringe
Cost 34

HP 70
Def 18
Att +8
Dam 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Mobile Attack. Evade

Advanced Warning [If this character has line of sight to an enemy, Unique Allies gain Relay Orders.]

Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]

Jam Transmission [At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 enemy commander effect. Until the end of the round, the chosen commander effect is suppressed farther than 6 squares from that commander or its allies with Relay Orders]

Rapport [This character costs 5 less when in the same squad as a character whose name contains Talon Karrde]

Relay Orders [Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects.]

Willing to Serve [Counts as a follower for purposes of allied commander effects]

Commander Effect
Usable when your squad contains only Fringe characters: If this character is unactivated at the start of an enemy phase, you may force that player to activate 2 characters that phase (including the first phase of the round) while suppressing enemy commander effects that alter the number of activations per phase.

Trusted by Karrde because he had the trust of the crew, Aves was never very far from the smuggler chief


Done

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"I kinda thought attacking my opponent's pieces was like the entire point of the game." Graham Bingham.

Proud member of the 790 club. (Number of unique sets of stats WotC released) Forever
Life after death: V-sets + 652 (And there will never be a repeat of stats again!)
EPICS: + 18

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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. Aves, Communications OfficerPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:54 pm
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Done.


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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 29. Aves, Communications OfficerPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:44 pm
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Done

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The thread is a little disjointed, because some conversations happened on Facebook, some by group PM, and some face to face. It would be an insane effort to cobble it all together.

Reading some PMs from that time period, TJ and Jim really deserve a lot of credit. They contributed a LOT as non-vest 10 designers. Excellent examples of positive contributions, and respectful constructive criticism to help balance a piece.

Very well designed piece! I'm loving the fringe faction development the last couple years