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Force Immunity thoughts. Warning outside the box thinking inside... Options
donnyrides
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 9:26:52 AM
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I think Force Immunity needs to be rethought out. The Yuuzan Vong were not affected by things like mind tricks, push, pull or grip and the like, but they should be able to be impacted by lightning and LS throw. Force is used to create lightning, but after that, it’s just lightning. And the force was used to throw the lightsaber so why can’t that ability be used against Yuuzan Vong?

I contest that Force Immunity was written poorly from the start and is being treated too much like Ysalamiri. The only real difference is that a force user can use buffs on themselves then hit Yuuzan Vong with them where Ysalamiri cancels the ability to use the force.

I love using Yuuzan Vong but as the game evolved into the Vset era where a lot of time was spent thinking about how can we make the minor factions relevant, some built in WotC abilities don’t really portray or do what they once did. In the WotC days since there were so very few Yuuzen Vong options, FI made them a fun option to mess with. Now that Vsets have made them main stream and viable FI kind of breaks them to a degree.

I have some crazy ideas, but I think this is something to think about. The game can’t move into a more melee/jedi-esque meta when one entire faction is pretty much exempt from what makes most fun/cool beat sticks unique.

maybe a fringe piece with vong-sense and force sense is needed at this stage in the game's life.

Thanks for taking the time to read.
~Donny
kobayashimaru
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 10:13:28 AM
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interesting approach, Donny -
thanks for sharing

indeed, in-universe it doesn't make much sense how vong force immunity and ysalamiri function as compared to the game interpretation...
it could be the basis of a houserule.
vong haven't been abused locally to that extent since the era of NomBomb squads BigGrin
that, and with present meta being ~50% autodamage in the form of Missiles 40 or grenades 30 etc,
its just not been too much of a mismatch scenario
I don't see force immunity being why Vong are more powerful -
its their damage reducing capacity and those danged thud bugs or razorbug barrages... BigGrin

Ysalamiri floor rules were errata'd and tweaked somewhat,
around the same time as Poggle and the points cap on lowest cost of piece in a competitive squad.

Things such as Force Maelstrom, Master Speed, Force Leap, Force Burst, Force Wave, Force Lightning etc,
even whirlwind attack, lightsaber riposte, lightsaber throw, lightsaber block, lightsaber defense or lightsaber assault... if you think about it -
the force is not acting upon the Vong, it just empowers the jedee to swing more etc.

Nearer to Kryptonite-Ysalamiri, jedee go weak at the knees,
but Vong weren't depicted as Kryptonite-level nasty.
Ysalamiri also came at a cost -
predators would easily go for the vulnerable slug,
and species which could sense pheromones etc could easily detect ysalamiri locations...

all that stuff oughta still effect a Vong.
things such as Mind Trick, Force Alter, levitate, force push (which represents "Move Object" from the RPG)
etc,
those probably shouldn't effect the Zonama Sekot-ans/Vong
gholli69
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 10:59:02 AM
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You might be on to something here, def. Worth discussing as I've always thought some of the things that didn't make much sense like the lightning example you mentioned, yes it's generated by the force user, but it is still electricity once summoned.
Mando
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 12:09:57 PM
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You can currently use Lightsaber Throw against enemies with Force Immunity. It grants the user attacks and thus it acts like Lightsaber Assault. So feel free to throw your lightsaber at swarms of Vong all you want! I saw this come up in a Tile Wars match where my brother had the 100pt Luke and was going against Thrawn with his Ysalmri bubble. Luke won the matchup and it was thanks to Lightsaber Throw.
donnyrides
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 12:38:43 PM
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That's true about throw, but I don't see why riposte can't be used or bubble/block/deflect/defense or even rerolling. These are all things that could be very important to melee heavy squads.

Also true that the yuuzan vong are not an issue in the tournament scene yet, but as far as just for fun with friends games, they are anything but fun to play against.

FI: Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities
Ronson
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 12:40:55 PM
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I have always thought that jedi should be able to use lightsaber block/defense against vong. I think its just silly that jedi that rely on that lightsaber block/defense cannot defense themselves at all.
gholli69
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 1:08:02 PM
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+1 to what ronson said, I feel like it isn't really all that different from sith rage which they can use as they are using the force to enhance their own damage dealing capabilities. In a similar fashion I believe that block/defense would be a representation of them channeling the force to boost their own defensive abilities with the light saber, and therefore not directly affecting the vong
character but only enhancing their own abilities.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 1:49:57 PM
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It has been said before that even in the stories (which I have not read), part of how the Jedi were so amazing at defense was sensing their opponent's next move. They could not sense the Vong, so it was much harder to anticipate how exactly they should defend next.

But that explanation only goes so far, there's still a lot to be said for experience and intuition in general. Folks like Mandalorian Blademasters don't rely (or even use it!), they rely on training and experience.

This brings up the problem that Parry only further outdates Lightsaber Block because a Jedi with Parry is doing the EXACT same thing as a Jedi with Lightsaber Block, but one costs Force points and the other does not.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 8:15:06 PM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
It has been said before that even in the stories (which I have not read), part of how the Jedi were so amazing at defense was sensing their opponent's next move. They could not sense the Vong, so it was much harder to anticipate how exactly they should defend next.


And that's pretty much the design standpoint given from when the Vong were added to the game.

Though with the escalation of Vong power, it really feels like the other sides need to respond in kind. I would be against changing Force Immunity itself, but instead feel that more ways to get around it should be introduced. Something like, say, a Veteran Jedi Commander, who would allow allies to use force powers to respond to Force Immune enemies. Sure, they wouldn't be able to lightning or push, but they'd be able to block or reroll a save. Or simply have a character that gives Parry to those that have Block.

Also, this topic is more fitting for general than it is for rules.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 10:34:06 PM
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@EmporerDragon,
I'd have to agree, if it's not a hypothetical on rules, general or misc cover this excellent discussion.
It was awesome to see how FI and Ysalamiri were intended to function though,
for future ref etc.

@all,
it seems some different interpretations of how to play/rule FI are there,
though in official games, LThrow etc are permissible,
which was great to have clarified.

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