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You Can't Teach An Old Dog New Tricks, But You Can Give An Old Meta New Rules Options
CorellianComedian
Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 9:05:47 AM
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Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 1,055
Wow... lots of spam today...

So, there are a lot of differences in tournament rules back when SWM came out compared to today - I wasn't playing then, but from what I've read, the most notable differences are using 100 point squads instead of 200 and the lack of gambit. There's a great thread somewhere on the Wizards forums about the dominant squad types for each era of the game. If I remember right, the initial strategies were (a) using R2, Fett and Leia, pick off a weak piece to get a point lead and lock then lock the other team out, or (b) use tanks so that (a) can't work. Direct damage swarms started working their way in, Nom Bombs, etc.

My random question of the day: What do you think the game would be like using just the older sets (just Rebel Storm, or only up to Clone Strike, or Revenge of the Sith, or Universe, etc.) and today's rules (200-point squads, 10-point gambit, any current errata regarding special abilities, etc.).

Feel free to correct/add any pertinent information I missed.

Personally, I think especially for Rebel Storm, Fett would show up everywhere - it's not like you've got anything else to spend 1/4 of your squad on - and Jabba would be a strong option for Reinforcements. I think Veers would show up a lot, too. He's not a good choice in 100 points, but at 200 you've room for him, some Heavy Stormies or Elite Snowtroopers, and a Vader.

For Clone Strike, I think the Republic would end up swarming their weird Uniques, or maybe going on a tank spree with Mace, Fett, Zam and Qui-Gon. I think Zam would show up a lot as well, as she's a risky investment in 100 points but you've got much more room for her in 200. I bet Seps would either tank it out with Maul, Dooku, Sidious and Boba, or maybe they would swarm Droidekas. Or Maybe even a mix of the two. Maybe Dwarf Spiders with Grievous and a BDO. Aurra Sing could fit in well with any of the above...

Anyways, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. ThumbsUp pick any set release you want (up to Legacy of the Force, or only up to Universe, or whatever)
donnyrides
Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 10:28:03 AM
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Joined: 4/22/2011
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I don't remember 100 point as much as 150 with no gambit. I started with CotF in about 2006 or 07 and the Sith just landed on the scene with two of the most awesome pieces (IMO of course), Bane and Kun, along with Nihilus, an malik. My friend and I split a case of boosters for CotF when we saw Maul, Mace, Bane, Kun etc.. He landed Maul Nihilus and Mace, I ended up with Bane, Kun and bastila.
Bane and Kun almost require 150+ points to play. I personally still love 150. You can get in a few CEs with fun pieces but you don't have the crazy vong type chains of giving a minor minion type piece Double/Evade/bonus to saves/rolling cleave/+x+y/ etc... and you don't have the wait-you-out 20+ mice stuff.

A casual 150 might look like old thrawn, 70+ point vader, and then some stormy fodder. It was still fun, games went fast and gambit wasn't needed to move games along...unless you played sep droids with 15 + battle droids a bdo and gave them all twin double. This may be the exact reason why gambit was invented. droids would just sit in one spot and make you walk into them which is why gambit may have fixed this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in ANY WAY contesting WotC to Vset. The after WotC era of Vsets has been a lot of fun and have leveled the playing field for Mandos, Vong, Sith, NR, OR while still keeping the major factions of old Rebels, Imps, Seps and Republic fresh and interesting. I'm not trying to compare that, I'm comparing format. And maybe I'm just over romanticizing the "good ol' days", but IMO 150 was the best for both speed and limiting NPEs. I would love to play 150 with today's stuff. Vader of Lothal would be a fantastic piece to just beat some @ss with and not need commanders. Just take him and Palp sith lord and some rep flame throwers or something and have some fun.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 11:07:49 AM
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Joined: 12/26/2008
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Location: Watertown, SD
You forgot one of the bigger changes, where the person going first could only activate one character on their first phase (That was introduced around KOTOR). Before that, the person going first would be able to activate the usual two so the game would generally be decided by a critical initiative.

In any case, I doubt we'd see a drastic change in the meta with the new rules. What we'd likely see is the top-reigning squads like Operation Dirt Bag or HAL getting additional support added to the squad. The Jedi and other melee beatsticks would become far less popular as outside of Vader JH, Luke JM, and Obi-Wan JM, they would fall even more easily to a ranged barrage as it took the mistake of the Jedi Weapons Master to mostly correct their overcosting.

Override will also be supreme once again, as without Stachel Charge or other Override breakers, it becomes a race to pick off your opponent's overrider(s) and locking them into a closet.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 10:21:53 PM
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Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
Wow! Great question.
Basically, I'd approach it in an EJ-C way
(electronic journal of combinatorics);
so, i'd transliterate your question as:
"If the game were more NP-Complete, what would happen to the constraints on particular moves for a given set of maps"
and "what if those maps array were also nearing NP-Completeness?"

So, we could make a few charts, average the number of squares for the set,
iterate out all the possible moves (order is important, and theres quite a few illegal moves to sort hehe).
Long story short, by back of envelope,
there's still 10^2-300 moves possible with the given pieces even only from Rebel Storm to say RotS only,
and with only the maps available then.
Thats when the fun begins, in trying to determine the optimal squad configurations for the 100 or 200pt constraints...

It still looks like, from back of envelope,
the Republic, and Rebels would be strong factions if the limit was set at Clone Strike with up-to clone strike maps.
RotS shifts things a little, and Imperials and Seps become viable. San Hill and Wat Tambor v1, backbones of the pre-TCW set/preVSET meta.
There'd also be a lot less swarm-squad builds, and higher average point cost.
I'm thinking that would also mean a defacto cap on activations, until more reserves pieces such as Lobot v1 etc came in.
This in turn would probably alter average run time.

There are fewer Hobsons' Choice pieces - pieces which are auto-include to be viable,
however, there is also a greater risk of 'mismatch NPE", due to the previously mentioned biases some factions had for a while
notably R2 in rebels or Republic with Override...

The game also switches from auto-damage abilities,
to attacks,
which make the atk and def values much more important.

I look forward to seeing what others reflect on this excellent question also
- thanks for asking a great hypothetical corelliancomedian BigGrin
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