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Imagine you're new.... Options
Echo24
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 4:49:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
So just a thought exercise. Imagine you've never played SWM before. What would make you want to start learning more?

Hearing the rules or stories of play from someone? Seeing somebody else play? Reading about it online? Seeing boosters on a store shelf?

After that first "hook", what would keep you coming back? Well-balanced competitive play? Well-supported organized play? Fun/accurate/interesting representations of Star Wars characters? Interesting online content (articles, forum posts, etc.)? Online play?

What would turn you off of the game as a new player?

When you actually were new, what were the answers to the above for you?

Answers from everybody are welcome, from actually new players to old hands and V-set designers! I'm interested in what makes people start and stop playing SWM, because maybe if we get a more focused idea of that we can improve the game in ways to actually get more people to start and keep playing.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 5:21:16 PM
Rank: Moderator
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,444
Squadbuilding interests me. Seeing how new squads interact interests me.

I'd be even more interested if I had an active playgroup that also was interested in squadbuilding. As is, I have just a few local opponents but only one who builds his own squads.

It's hard to put myself in the shoes of a new player, but I think that when I started out I was hoping to find new combinations no one else had previously found. The current game has it available more than ever. Two things contribute to that - fewer players (so there's more unexplored space in squadbuilding) and more balance in the Vset pieces that have been released. So there are more pieces available to find interesting combinations.

I'm sure that for a new player if there's no one to play with that's probably the biggest turnoff.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 6:06:41 PM
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Joined: 1/8/2010
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People like the miniatures, the cards, the sweet maps, the physical product immerses one in the game. That's what drew me and many others to it in the first place. Stayed for the sweet tactical combat, ongoing Vsets, amazing and still active community here, and last but also most importantly: epics. It's like a whole new game and they really let people play out their "being that character" vision.

For several players, campaign RPG edition, Bloomilk campaigns, and other variants ("zombies mode" using rakghouls is pretty popular up here as well) are also major draws.
Cassus fett
Posted: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:01:30 PM
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Joined: 6/10/2010
Posts: 760
Location: The Shadowlands of Kashyyyk
Oh boy the memeoroes this question brings. I started playing when I was around 7. I started because it was Star Wars and it was one of those cool for the year things all the kids were doing. I asked my parents if I could start playing and after some explaining they were happy to let me. My dad was an old school D&D guy and my mom thought it would be a good hobby for me. So we went out to the LGS and picked up the Revenge of the Sith starter and a couple cheap mook guys. I distinctly remember my mom asking me if I wanted a Wookiee which I said well of course, (I was super uncomfortable with my parents buying me stuff like that). After that I went home and immediately read both the quick play and full rules and demanded someone play with me. I was told to wait until the next day (Saturday) and so I read the rules book all over again and went to sleep. Next day we played using the 3 man teams from the quick play book. I was Grievous and two super battle droids. Dad Was Kenobi and two clones. We played 3 games and he beat my ass three times. I was frustrated, angry and completely hooked from that moment. I learned two very important lessons. Some people are better (and you can be come better through practice) and some pieces are just better than others (no way around that). After that all the allowance and chore money went to boosters and singles. I got heavy into trading especially at school during recess and it just took off. Tournaments at the community club playing my friends and cousins. Slowly people dropped the game and I absorbed their collections (I've taken in 5 peoples collections at this point). Found bloomilk late 2010 and my interest soared to new heights. I was on a hiatus through some of highschool until I taught my girlfriend and other friends how to play and now we do semi regular games. It was quite a shock to me to learn that most people didn't start playing until well Into the games life, while I've been here since almost the start. I thought I was the naive kid who didn't know anything. Turns out I'm the crusty old guy whose been around since the "good old days" in the "golden age".
"See Im from a different time sonny, back when Jedi had one attack, no renewal and cost 3/4 of your team. None of this fancy shmancy renewal 2 master of the force, ooga booga nonsense now a days".

And that was my orgin story, peace, love and good will to all
gholli69
Posted: Saturday, February 4, 2017 12:06:16 AM
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Joined: 5/12/2012
Posts: 456
Location: Kokomo, IN
I know personally I got invited to play in a royal rumble game by AceAce right around the time that vset1 dropped and the game immediately appealed to me as it is SW based and having played D&D and a few other games before it was just similar with but with minifigs to represent your character which was also cool. I think a simple version of the game where you are only controlling a few characters at a time like a RR or a dynamic duo type game is a great way to introduce someone to the game as it allows you to teach them the basic mechanics of the game without them having to be overwhelmed trying to keep track of all the different abilities on 8-15 cards that are more typical of a regular skirmish type game.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Saturday, February 4, 2017 4:05:29 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
this is an excellent question!
I recall a few similar threads to this, so they're great to keep in mind,
though I always enjoy seeing where people approach this from.

From my experiences in running different local tournaments,
exhibition matches, casual 'drop-in' matches, etc...
I try to obtain some data, as I have had people get to turn 3 or so in a 100pts game exhibition match
and get bored, get up and walk off...
though most of the new inquiries have been from people who've seen us playing,
or just want to give something a try and have fun.
other games they've played had terrible cultures in the player-base: W40k, tannhauser league, malifaux, warmachine etc...
it was: rules-stickler, elitist/did not tolerate proxies or new-comers, people didn't take the time with them etc.

so its a number of factors -
the subject of the game itself,
the large-scale "wow factor" of seeing the miniatures all arrayed at a tournament or those ridiculous all day affairs
(5000 pts Seps v 5000pts Republic 15 a side!)
ease to play, frequency of games,
gaming culture (how friendly/lively are folks? what demography is at the local game store?)
and, cost of entry (time, fiscal etc).

we also have to model for the 'back of envelope market cap' -
that is,
of the number of star wars fans,
x % are fans enough to actively seek merchandise and games.
of those, x% are likely to game on an infrequent basis etc...
so from the global market cap of ~2-3billion sci fi fans, we now get down to,
at any time t, 300 million total persons who'd play a miniatures game at some point,
and maybe 10 million who game on a regular basis over their lifetime.
these people are not distributed equally over the earth's geography or temporally, and so many will speak different languages than english and search for the term in their own language.
(which is awesome to meet Star Wars fans from all around the world)
From what I can glean of production data, most of SWMinis total production run was in English, though it was also published in
Chinese, Russian, German, French, Greek, Arabic, Thai and Malay (the indonesian and Philippines SWMinis groups suggested these for a few sets). Hence, there could be a fundamental mismatch in folks knowing of the miniatures, if they're not in those regionalizations.
they're searching for a different term, if at all.
We are effectively also competing with FFG's imperial assault, heroclix and several other miniatures games...
in the context of the Great Depression mk 2, when people have the least discretionary income at all age brackets of the market,
and the least free time,
combined with a cultural shift in many places away from miniatures and models in general...
(YOLO TLDR)
there are a lot of factors which people are using.
why play with a 'static' miniature, when videogames have lights and sound?
yet those are no competition for the awesome simplicity that is WotC's SWMinis!

Once people realize that the miniatures are cross compatible, they tend to get more interested.
once they realize there is bloomilk, lead-adventure.de, coolminiornot, boardgamegeek etc...
their eyes light up, and they realize there is a whole world of fans out there too!
and, customizing/proxies are not only encouraged, but a routine occurrence?
say, that cost of entry is just right!
You can also use the figures for FORPG, GURPS, SWRPGs etc.
and, when people see things like
"far out and unique places that SWMinis have been played" -
such as aboard USS independence, USS Gerald R Ford, HMAS Canberra,
mount cook, mount Kosciusko, in a submarine, at castles in scotland...
they see it and think "wow'!

In terms of introduction, usually the player will set their pace,
though I like to start folks on
Tile Wars, Standard 100, Dynamic Duos, and "exhibition matches",
working our way towards
SW40K/'SW kill team", Dynamic Duos, 250/300, 500 pts etc.
many local game stores have nuanced interpretations of 'how the force works' -
it functions a lot more similarly to SWTCG and Warhammer Fantasy,
-it's a pool that all jedi can use from.
-all characters with a lightsaber have lightsaber defense.

anywho,
I hope this offers some insight,
and that SWMinis as a hobby, and bloomilk
continue to thrive and prosper as time goes on.
SWMinis goes from strength, to strength!

This is an awesome game,
I cannot overstate the value this game has pedagogically, as it teaches so many people math (especially combinatorics/permutations etc) and social skills.
the simplicity and combinations make this easily on par with Chess, Go, tabletop wargames, and roleplaying games.
it's a game for ages 4 to 104 (i think 104 is the oldest person to play and win a SWMinis game).
Darth_Jim
Posted: Saturday, February 4, 2017 1:08:56 PM
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Joined: 4/23/2008
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Location: Central Pa
104? I'd like to know more background on that person, if you have any. Sounds intriguing. (And no, it wasn't me, although I am over half that age lol.)

As far as my initial attraction to the game, it was definitely mass battles. (circa 2005) That's why I now have gobs of Imperial and Rebel non-uniques, and also why it took me until a year after WotC abandoned ship to complete my collection. Early on before I was aware of the national following or even knew of local groups, I was running mass battle events at the 2 Historical Miniatures Gamers' conventions in Lancaster Pa, Historicon and Cold Wars. My attraction to the competitive scene didn't start until a few years later.

Were I just getting into the game now I'd probably be focusing on getting lots of troopers and staying away from more complicated gameplay and interactions between characters.
sinestro
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 9:34:54 AM
Rank: Aqualish Assassin
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Joined: 12/13/2014
Posts: 7
If you were new you'd just walk away. The insurmountable avalanche of figures, most of which have been obsoleted, some of which who's cards you may own are essentially textless. The initial attraction of SWM being a scaled down easier to learn and teach version of DDM has died, dried up and blown away as dust in the wind. A new player watching mouse droids mindlessly spin, Dash Rendar take 108 attacks, Jar Jar forcing a figure to attack itself and all the mechanics would just drown a new player. Why not just scrap all the V-Sets which are confusing and inaccessible and just recost the assets players already have. Then the only real change is errata and a change in the cost in the upper corner of the card. This is acceptable because people almost universally use a software tool to build teams. We have some great minds who have years of experience. Every WotC figure has an appropriate cost, it would take work to find it. Instead of making the 4,012th Luke just fix the fucking one from Rebel Storm so I can teach somebody to play the game again. You can't possibly get less people to show up to Gencon, what is there to lose?
CorellianComedian
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:19:32 AM
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Joined: 8/30/2014
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I guess for me (and a friend of mine), we started out with just playing super-casual WotC for fun - had no idea the v-sets even existed. We play v-sets over Vassal now, but it did take a while to get the hang of how the v-sets works. BUT, it also is really confusing to get targeting rules down, and targeting rules interacting with Stealth, Super-Stealth, and Cloaked.

I think you maybe need that time to learn the ropes with casual WotC instead of rushing into competitive v-sets right away. Competition requires you to be knowledgeable about outactivation, initiative control, getting CEs out there, door control, etc. That's a lot to think about. Playing pure casual with whatever looks like fun - even if its Nikto Soldiers - is a good way to start, I think. What drew me to the v-sets was (a) MORE PIECES! and (b) learning how tournament strategy works. I spent a long time studying tournament squads in my free time, looking at what people used and what they didn't use. Before then... well, check out my comments Cade Skywalker, Legacy of the Force, when I first discovered Bloo Milk.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:34:08 AM
Rank: Moderator
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Joined: 1/30/2009
Posts: 6,458
Location: Southern Illinois
CorellianComedian wrote:
I think you maybe need that time to learn the ropes with casual WotC instead of rushing into competitive v-sets right away.


+1
The game has gotten much more complex, and not just by the sheer number of pieces. The relatively bare-bones early WotC stuff is great for learning all the core mechanics of the game.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:44:08 AM
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Joined: 12/26/2008
Posts: 2,115
Location: Watertown, SD
CorellianComedian wrote:
I think you maybe need that time to learn the ropes with WotC instead of rushing into v-sets right away.


Well, with any games like these, it's always best to ease new players into the concepts rather than just chucking them into the deep end and expecting them to swim.

Though, that onus is on the teacher. If you're introducing a person to SWM, you don't just point a person to a pile of minis and go "here, select 200 points worth of these guys", then sic a gencon championship team on their kludged together squad. No, you'd have a few simple pre-made squads (say, Luke, Rebel, RS Obi, and some assorted fringe vs. RotS Vader and some stormtroopers in a 100 point match) designed to teach the core concepts without overwhelming them. And then once they start with their own squads, you don't go bringing your fine-tuned death squad to the table immediately; instead, you would handicap yourself, both for fairness and for a challenge, and bring lower-tier or gimmick squads into the fray, further allowing them to absorb the game int bits and pieces.
TheHutts
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:45:23 AM
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Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
KezzamachineII taught a new playgroup the game last year, and some of them are very keen and members of the board. It'd be interesting to hear their thoughts.

If people were learning from scratch, I'd suggest they build up to the point where they learn the five big 200 point WOTC squads - Skybuck, Solo Charge, Han Cannon with Commandos, Thrawn swap, and Lancer/Sidious, before they take on the v-sets. Often v-set detractors don't understand how powerful and ahead of the pack the best WOTC squads were.
Caedus
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:56:20 AM
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Joined: 4/20/2015
Posts: 1,254
My First experience with SWM was a Battle of Hoth Scenario played with my gaming group. I was hooked from the start. I played for about three years, until WotC stopped production and I took a couple of years off due to no one playing anymore. Then luckily I found this group and was re-introduced to the game. This is my 3rd year on the tournament scene (2nd full year) and I love it. I think though that one of the things that helped and still helps me is that about 4 from my old group still get together and play. None of them use V-sets, so it helps simplify the game for me and allows me to truly understand the basics and how the smaller pieces and tech work. I think that the game is just as fun, if not more fun, as it ever was.
donnyrides
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 11:23:11 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 4/22/2011
Posts: 593
I'll keep short

How I got into it: I love MTG and got a friend into MTG and he said Minis was a lot like MTG

How I've gotten other players into the game: Make sure they like star wars first then introduce them to cool WotC minis that they have heard of. Boba, Luke, Vader, Stormies, Yoda, Han, Chewie, etc...

What got them hooked: Easy 100 point squads at first. Take time to teach them how a commander with synergized commons can be stronger than a squad full of rares with no synergy. Then once they have accepted this "gateway drug" unleash the power of the bloomilk squad builder ThumbsUp BlooMilk Also take time to teach how to build a squad using bloomilk. Find an ability they like and show how to build around it.

Things that chased potential players off: Kicking their ass when you thought they were ready for live action is #1. And #2 is for MTG fans, but Blue MTG style complexity rules. I had a friend that was getting into it quit over "named". Like ARC Trooper Captain Fordo And Commando Droid Officer CE's. The new Phasma kind of irritates me with her "named" effect and I've played for about 10+ years. - (disclaimer: this is not the forum to discuss this piece or it's abilities, Thanks)

How to get people into the game: If Disney would just kick off 1 set of new figures, I bet it would take off like wild fire with the success of X-wing and Imperial Assault and the launch of 2 movies since it went out of print. Without new figures, it's hard to get people into an out of print game.
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