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Lets not jack the other thread, as it was a regional thread. Just make a new one.
The questions in play, besides whose comments are more low class than anothers, is when do we counter a squad type.
It seems to be very inconsistent in my eyes.... I hate to beat a dead horse, but I feel like this falls in line with points that are trying to be made. So suffer through this please.
We fought for Mace to be changed, he wasn't because "he was not seen as a problem to designers." Mace wins regionals ( I think) and eventually wins GenCon, then BAM, all of a sudden, designers don' like playing against him, so they counter him HARD with multiple forms of Melee hate.
Daala was an issue. He was an NPE for everyone BUT designers. Designers fought to keep him the way he was so swarms could stay strong, he dominated the NZ tournaments, and so finally, after dominant performance after dominant performance, he was nerfed. Apparently not anywhere near what he should have been, as his squads are still VERY hard to deal with.
Zygerian Slavers, and Poggle Bombs. How many games would I quit if this combo were still as bad as it was? They were the focal point of Separatist Squads. And finally, after to much domination, the squad type was just Nerfed down to almost unplayable.
I honestly can't think of another time a Reserves squad has EVER caused this much commotion. I made this squad,and multiple versions of it when him, and Yoda of Geonosis came out. It wasn't until a designer played against him, and had a bad experience, that now it is a problem.
So the question is there. Are squad types only a problem if designers view it as one? Because based off history, it seems designers continue to fight for squads THEY VIEW as ok, and once it becomes an issue to something that they run, all of a sudden its bad for the game, and needs to be changed somehow.
I wish more than anything, we could just be consistent with the decision making. Vong are an NPE. And there are MULTIPLE times I will quit if they are dropped, because they are a direct counter to all squad types I like to run. How is it more important that Reserves be countered because of one bad experience, than for something else to be countered because of a life long time of bad experiences?
P.S. Talon KArde is also on my I will not play list. I was semi for him at first, but now, seeing how powerful he is with all that on him, I wish more than anything he would be taken out. There was so much Ysalmari ran in Ohio, I'm not sure how Force Users even breathed!!!
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Okay, I don't have any spectacular insight to offer here, other than this: the designers put a lot of time and thought into making pieces, as do play-testers. I don't think this gives them (nor have they taken) right to look down their noses at everyone else, but that means that for a while after release, the designers have a much better handle on how the new pieces work than the community at large. Doesn't mean they're the definitive source on them, doesn't mean they have God-like precognition and know a piece won't be a problem, it simply means that they have handled the piece a lot more than others, simply because they've had a several-month-long head start on knowing how it works.
I say all this because, regardless of power level, some pieces are flashier than others. Some pieces look really benign, but end up being almost game-wrecking. Other pieces look crazy good and attract a lot of negative attention on release, and then nothing happens.
SO, when a flashy piece comes out, I think the designers will (and rightfully so) defend it, at least at first. Take Daala for instance - Daala is a flashy piece. Massive movement breaker, massively convenient stat boost, reserves, all for the help of the poor impoverished trooper builds. That's gonna draw attention, but it's for troopers, right? Troopers were weak! Some backlash is gonna happen just because it looks like a lot. In Daala's case, it did turn out to be a lot - too much.
If you're expecting an overreaction to something (I am NOT saying ANYONE has overreacted - this is just "in theory"), when that overreaction happens, it's easy to dismiss. If things settle down and it turns out the piece really is just fine, it turns out someone was perfectly justified in defending it. If it turns out to NOT be fine, it might take a while for someone to see it IF they were expecting an overreaction BECAUSE they've been working with a piece for months already and are pretty sure they have it pegged. Playing against something you defend is the best way to fact-check your own opinions on a piece you are defending.
All of this is speculation, though, I am not a designer, and don't even know a designer personally. And to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, we are all fallible human beings. This post is not about designers being arrogant or detractors being a mad mob or anything, I am simply trying to point out and apply the limitations of human nature.
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ehhhh I think i will just start taking the scruffyhan approach... say it is broken then prove it. who wants to play some vassal with me soon 
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Honestly, don't think reserves squads in general are broken, they just happen to be something that Timmerb123 doesn't like. Knowing Tim, I know that he dislikes things that swing a game based on luck and not the strategies of positioning pieces and good strategic gameplay. However, there are plenty of people who don't mind that aspect of the game so much and they shouldn't be bashed for it. I think the even bigger issue that Tim had with this particular squad and most reserves squads in general, is that if it was being run by an average player it would still be strong, but when played by someone of Urbanjedi caliber it becomes very frustrating to have him build a squad that is hate for what you are running while the game is being played.
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gholli69 wrote:Honestly, don't think reserves squads in general are broken, they just happen to be something that Timmerb123 doesn't like. Knowing Tim, I know that he dislikes things that swing a game based on luck and not the strategies of positioning pieces and good strategic gameplay. However, there are plenty of people who don't mind that aspect of the game so much and they shouldn't be bashed for it. I think the even bigger issue that Tim had with this particular squad and most reserves squads in general, is that if it was being run by an average player it would still be strong, but when played by someone of Urbanjedi caliber it becomes very frustrating to have him build a squad that is hate for what you are running while the game is being played. yeah kind of like the palleon swap-versatility... they suck to.
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After last weekend, if I see another MTB I'm going off the deep end. Oh yes, and MT.
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AceAce wrote:After last weekend, if I see another MTB I'm going off the deep end. Oh yes, and MT. Maybe it's time the MTB goes? I guess the MTB is what keeps Tacticians from running the universe. 
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I don't think we should be so quick to ban or nerf anything that wins a regional. If it was constantly, reproducibly winning all games and regionals then it can be looked at. But as is it's way to flinch reactionary that someone wins a regional with something other than the "top 50" SWM pieces and people immediately call for change and state NPE. People need to realized that if something is actually a problem then it would consistently be a problem, like Daala was.
Another thing is one person's NPE is another persons favourite squad type. I for one hate strafe, I don't mind galloping attack or spinning blade attack as it requires some planning and thought and can be avoided in large hallways, but strafe on a speeder is the actual worst thing and shouldn't be in the game, everyone in my area hates it and I specifically don't play it despite it being probably one of the two best squads my Separatists can field. Tim played a perfect example of what I think shouldn't exist in the first place and should be forever altered to a strafe of 6 squares or have the amount of characters it can target be limited. But I'm not going to make a bid deal against it, I'll fight against it, often lose or adapt and move on. Real problems are ones that generally everyone can agree on but even then all people, myself included, are biased and enjoy different aspects.
With reserve teams they are one of the few you can put a brand new player in (something my group gets up here) and still have them do well, if the force is with them, against seasoned vets. Same with disintegration, one year a new player in their first tournament managed to win by fluke killing Darth Bane with Boba disintegration and, as you can imagine, the seasoned Sith player hated it and said it was broken and the new player loved it.
Random luck based teams are a key balancing factor to help newer players that can't beautiful mind chess board the heck out of the game like most of us can, and reserve teams are the best version of luck based gameplay in our beloved game. And for that they will always have a place at our tables.
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I am interested in whether the Jason squad with double reserves and the Muun Tactics Broker is something that needs to be addressed before Gencon. It's pretty interesting, as all of the core pieces have been around for a few years, but adding the Muun Tactics Broker is what's placed it over the edge.
I do think that we're largely in the area of removing NPEs rather than broken things - I don't see many problem squads of the magnitude of Daala or Commando Droid Officer, and I think the strongest squads right now include Thrawn (outactivate and smash is still nasty) which is essentially a WOTC build, and Daala, which the balance committee has already nipped back a couple of times.
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General_Grievous wrote:I don't think we should be so quick to ban or nerf anything that wins a regional. If it was constantly, reproducibly winning all games and regionals then it can be looked at. But as is it's way to flinch reactionary that someone wins a regional with something other than the "top 50" SWM pieces and people immediately call for change and state NPE. People need to realized that if something is actually a problem then it would consistently be a problem, like Daala was.
Another thing is one person's NPE is another persons favourite squad type. I for one hate strafe, I don't mind galloping attack or spinning blade attack as it requires some planning and thought and can be avoided in large hallways, but strafe on a speeder is the actual worst thing and shouldn't be in the game, everyone in my area hates it and I specifically don't play it despite it being probably one of the two best squads my Separatists can field. Tim played a perfect example of what I think shouldn't exist in the first place and should be forever altered to a strafe of 6 squares or have the amount of characters it can target be limited. But I'm not going to make a bid deal against it, I'll fight against it, often lose or adapt and move on. Real problems are ones that generally everyone can agree on but even then all people, myself included, are biased and enjoy different aspects.
With reserve teams they are one of the few you can put a brand new player in (something my group gets up here) and still have them do well, if the force is with them, against seasoned vets. Same with disintegration, one year a new player in their first tournament managed to win by fluke killing Darth Bane with Boba disintegration and, as you can imagine, the seasoned Sith player hated it and said it was broken and the new player loved it.
Random luck based teams are a key balancing factor to help newer players that can't beautiful mind chess board the heck out of the game like most of us can, and reserve teams are the best version of luck based gameplay in our beloved game. And for that they will always have a place at our tables. Ironically people used to use a vary similar argument in order to keep Naboo from getting nerfed to heck and back. I dont think that argument works here though. A new player won't know the game well enough to bring in the right reinforcements to counter his opponent, let alone bring in the right reserves. I started playing not that long ago, and I wouldn't have touched Lobot for it's complexity and ability to Taylor make 20 points in your squad. A reserve squad that brings in 60 points each round?... Nope
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Abilities that cause swooping shifts in the game with a single dice roll are abilities that make me want to quit playing swm minis. Nothing sucked more than when I was playing against Bronson's in Ohio and I was starting to edge him out... Then he rolled ozzels reserves. I'm aware reserves and disintigration have been around for quite some time, but those abilities are only fun for the person running the squad.
If the new player is playing against disintigration or a reserves squad what is their response? My money is they would think that it's dumb... because that is what anyone I have taught the game has thought.
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atmsalad wrote:Abilities that cause swooping shifts in the game with a single dice roll are abilities that make me want to quit playing swm minis. Nothing sucked more than when I was playing against Bronson's in Ohio and I was starting to edge him out... Then he rolled ozzels reserves. I'm aware reserves and disintigration have been around for quite some time, but those abilities are only fun for the person running the squad. In the final of NZ Championships in 2014, Daman rolled Daala's reserves. In two consecutive rounds. 1/400 chance.
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I don't always notice until after the fact (face palm). Last tournament I rolled it against Jim and his Talon squad :(, it was just unnecessary.
Bronson rolled 3 reserves in one tournament, once against me and twice against Mike Giles. When your playing thrawn or daala the reserves is way to much of a power swing.
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Reserves is simply unnecessary in the competitive game. Period.
The examples above and many many more prove it.
Having a casual game where someone wants to play reserves is perfectly fine, but it causing a massive swings on a single die roll in competitive games is a detriment to Star Wars Miniatures.
There is already plenty of luck inherent in our game. Reserves compounding that exponentially is completely unnecessary.
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TimmerB123 wrote: Reserves is simply unnecessary in the competitive game. Period.
The examples above and many many more prove it.
Having a casual game where someone wants to play reserves is perfectly fine, but it causing a massive swings on a single die roll in competitive games is a detriment to Star Wars Miniatures.
There is already plenty of luck inherent in our game. Reserves compounding that exponentially is completely unnecessary. same with standing in the starting zone flipping 10 pieces until I am out then running something 12-18 and swapping in a piece and attacking me.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:TimmerB123 wrote: Reserves is simply unnecessary in the competitive game. Period.
The examples above and many many more prove it.
Having a casual game where someone wants to play reserves is perfectly fine, but it causing a massive swings on a single die roll in competitive games is a detriment to Star Wars Miniatures.
There is already plenty of luck inherent in our game. Reserves compounding that exponentially is completely unnecessary. same with standing in the starting zone flipping 10 pieces until I am out then running something 12-18 and swapping in a piece and attacking me. Or out activating someone... And then strafing their whole squad without being able to attack back. Or having Force Immune characters that can do damage without any luck what so ever, it just happens. Tons of things in this game are NPEs. Reserves are probably last on my list, mainly because they are more luck based than anything, and the pieces that have them are usually pretty easy to take out. Luke and Leia on the other hand, thats a tough piece to take out, throw in K3 and the Keeper, and you now have board wide swap. R2 +2 attack, and I'm sure I could come up with some other weird interactions. Lancers can be pawned, so you can strafe twice. Every Vehicle that was ever made. Vong Blast Bugs Every Imperial squad thats competitive. Darth Zannah I'll take my chances against Pong/Kazdan any day of the week rather than facing ANY Vong squad. I'll Kaan Bomb them, and be on my way. I don't have any issue with Reserve squads, and I actually love the fact the Kazdan can counter strafe by bringing in those droids. Mainly because I HATE strafe squads.
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I'm aware reserves and disintigration have been around for quite some time, but those abilities are only fun for the person running the squad.
But isn't that by definition 50% of the people playing the game? Of course it's only fun for the one running the squad. Being strafed is only fun for the strafe, same thing when someone with a 8-12 activation balanced type squad sits down and their opponent drops 20+ activations with tempo control, probably only fun for the guy with the massive activation count in that case. I'm not saying that all these things need to be nerfed or eliminated from the game mind you, just highlighting the fact that there are always going to be matchups that you personally find to be an NPE. I personally hate going up against 20+ activation with tempo control, but I haven't ever called for that to be nerfed, even though it seems to be a popular choice for lots of players. I would love to see some sort of hard activation cap instituted but I also understand that some people really enjoy that play style so who am. I to tell them they shouldn't play that way because I don't enjoy it!
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Q:"When is a Squad problem?"sic  A: when it beats the crap outta me! 
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It seems like a squad is a problem when it beats dodonna or ozzel...
The other npe's being played and got beat...
Seems kind of odd that one npe should be pressured to be changed while an old "npe" is being ignored.
I find it a tad suspect to favoritism of play type. I am so happy that reserves might end up being a natural counter to out activate and if it halts more 18 + activation squads from being played than I think it is perfect for the current game
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There is a big push to change even the old NPE. Constantly Strafe, Daala, Swap and Vong are considered in design and how the new squads can compete. However, an argument for not changing some OP aspect of the game because we haven't changed some other OP aspect of the game is just dumb.
Disclaimer, everything we have talked about I want changed as well. I help to construct a list of over 20 characters to be looked at by the balance committee.
Some of the most unfun games I have had were when I was running or playing against swap, Daala or Strafe. In saying that reserves is BS I am not saying this other crap is okay. I'm saying I want to limit power creep and change it to.
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