I pulled this from the other thread




Do you see how terribly awful this is?

Designers can design to make changes THEY don't like without any check or balance...

Players can..... wait for the changes to things they like and just deal with it.

haha designers can essentially destroy something someone finds a lot of fun in the name of their freedom.

I dont know why a Committee has not already been approved in the past to check designs before they come out.


It makes NO sense to not have a filtering system and than have more chance of needing to make an errata. Someone said it is so hard to make changes and get the changes out to everyone, especially those that buy cards are on not on bloo that often. yadda yadda.
If that is the case than designs ought to see the filter committee before being released.
It will stop designing that takes too many liberties.

This is what I wrote a few days ago

"Tbh I personally feel the balance committee should also serve as a check before pieces are released. A check for accuracy at the very least. Designers have too much say in what goes down in the grand scheme of things."

I would like to discuss it.

Our Founding Fathers thought it was essential to have checks and balances to power. Thus 3 branches where formed. Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.
Right now we are functioning with only 2 branches. there are no checks and balances.
We need the executive branch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFroMQlKiag

The judicial branch (balance committee) ensures that the way things are going is going well and it is fair and right by errata to things from the far past or recent past. We have seen them change things like 2 pt drops and even pieces themselves.
The balance team is checked by the community at large. We typically have a large say and apply a lot of pressure.

Now before a "bill" can become a law it has to go from one House to the other (senate to the reps)
We can call the Senate the Design team making the "bills" and the House the pt committee.
Once the bill goes back and forth and both the Design team and pt committee have okayed there designs it has to go somewhere else to be okayed. THE PRESIDENT!
but we have no executive Branch for it to go to.
I suggest that we do just that. Make a filtering committee.

My personal three choices are: Deaths_Baine, DarthJim, Kezza (if they are willing)
(you see the president is decided on by the people (in a sense anyway)).

So this branch can veto and send it back saying this is why we are not signing this you need to fix it b/c it is not fair, etc.
At that point the Design team AND pt committee have to look at it and make the changes or they can override the decision by the filtering committee. In which point the filtering committee would say "we Vetoed this b/c of this or that reason" but they are pushing it through anyway.

Literally the way a bill (design) gets through. because for the "little guy" the working class it stinks to not have things in place to ensure designers do not take liberties in changing the game too much.

ok. So, I in laments terms.
I propose that we have a filtering committee whose job it is to look a the whole design list for a set and have a discussion with the designers about what the intent is and what it will do to the game. Than they can ok it or say this or that needs a change.
This will also, most likely, help designs stay more secretive while designing knowing there is a filtering process at the end of the road.

community response and balance committee are not a part of this process. Rules committee focuses on rules not if it is good for the game.

Whats the quality control team?
Who is on it?
What does it do?

Jenari, while I am flattered and appreciate the confidence you have in me to monitor designers, I am not the man for that job. I will never be a designer because I simply don't have the foresight to anticipate the effects of design before they come out. While my input may be helpful on occasion regarding the impact of a design on stuff I run and know well, I am largely in the dark until I actually play stuff. It has always amazed me, for instance, how Fingersandteeth can look at a map and tell where the choke points are, where combat will take place, and so on. When it comes to designs as well as maps I'm kind of a Monday morning quarterback type. I have to see it happen and then I react.

Regarding the Balance Committee's personal bias on issues, it would be ridiculous to say that it can all be set aside. No one who will ever be asked to serve could say that without being an outright liar. What I can tell you is that I am putting forth my honest effort to do so. And, because I know the playstyles of those serving with me, I try and discern when their personal bias comes out. I have confidence that those serving with me are doing the same. For example, in recent discussions about TK-421 being too harsh of a counter to Karrde, I was in favor of leaving him as is, because I honestly believe the counter was not insurmountable and needed to be there. I could give instances where other members have argued against their bias as well but I respect their privacy. Personal bias could very well come into play, but from what I've seen so far in my stint on the committee, we've done a pretty good job of avoiding it.

Keep in mind that we have to differentiate personal bias and NPEs from actual game impact. I have some of the same NPEs that you and others do...the trick is discerning what pushes the game in a direction that restricts play and what is simply not fun to play against. If something dominates or dictates the meta we need to look at it, NPE or not. If it simply is not fun to play against but is countered by stuff people actually like and do play, that has to be considered as well.

Anyone reading this thread should always feel free to contact me or any BC member via Bloomail with concerns.

hey I am playtesting and I can assure you I will never be one of the elite lol.

Worst case.
... labeled as one ... you never know ... ( I dub thee - "elite" )

Oh I definitely would love to have that discussion.

But right now we are discussing Designers power to change the game. So it does not matter what the community wants if design overreaches or goes too far away from it.

Quality Control team sounds cool, needed, like it really does take a specially skilled hand to do that.

But it still does not address the question of who watches the watchmen

I think, most of the VSets do a fairly awesome job,
so, whatever process led to VSets 1 through 10, is probably the exegetical process to go with,
as that worked very well.

both in the vetting process for prototyping (the MCMC method used in testing)
and, the number of folks and correspondence between other designers.
that seemed to work as well as WotC official, or exceeded it in a few ways.

just look at the low rate of errata vs 'powercreep' etc,
as folks like TheHutts have reflected on in the past.
that is something fans and the VSet-ers should be proud of.

as to who watches the watch-people;
at this point, for an OOP boardgame, it is the players who do that.
they provide feedback and playtesting,
and eventually, errata is found.
if no-one plays any pieces from a VSet only a few months from release,
they soon get the hint.
if that keeps up, orders for printing of new sets don't come in,
and it grinds to a halt. while its a hobby,
I'm sure that'd annoy a lot of folks hehe.

Daala and Poggle were broken, but errata and good-sportspersonship (mostly)
solved the potential for meta-combo min-maxer abuse.

---

I think, as the number of pieces and meta approaches n^X! (ie, a problem of the vast hehe),
you almost need a gradstudent or AGIbot,
to check all the meta for each new piece...
I don't blame the VSet team who're on limited time etc,
to make the sets, to not exhaustively check all combos - that'd stifle creativity.

I think they're trying,
and it's a collaborative process,
and advocates of their pieces see it through.

Designers often then also make their own standalone customs too,
so, we can see pieces 'as they were originally intended' or
'ideas from the bench' as it were,
just like for Custom miniatures themselves.
so, I think it's fairly awesome mostly at the present.

that's my two dimes on this anyhow.
may bloomilk, and SWMinis, continue to flourish for long to come,
as this is a fun game any way you play it.
be that competitively, local league, casual play,
with VSets, noVSets, whatever.

i whine about what I feel is crappy design.
Baze Malbus and now Unkarr.

However, this does not fall on me for not play testing this set. This falls on those that let a piece destroy a play style.

I think we have heard more than a dozen times where designers do not listen to comments and go their own way regardless. Sure it has been helped but secret agendas get support and Bam it happens.
The problem, at its core, comes from the power of designers in general and a lack of top authority that grants direction over SWM as a whole.

We need a Master of the Order is what we need.

I can play tonight.