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If I bring this guy in through my reinforcements, do I still get to use his CE?
his CE reads
Before setup, choose one Unique Yuuzhan Vong ally. During setup, place that ally adjacent to this character.
I don't know the timing of reinforcements and this CE.
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The answer is no.
The answer is no
The system is down
The system is down
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I would rule the answer is yes.
"during setup" unfortunately has many different meanings. It means anything from after pairings are announced (like when we get to pick reinforcements) to the actual act of setting up pieces on the board (Light Tutor, Dark Master, etc).
So both the "before setup" and "during setup" in the Paratroopers CE should mean that immediately before starting to place characters on the board (before setup) choose a guy and then while placing them on the board (during setup) put him adjacent to the paratrooper.
This is entirely different then "after setup" (ie pelleaon or 8th cortex, etc) when you choose to add stuff.
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urbanjedi wrote:I would rule the answer is yes.
"during setup" unfortunately has many different meanings. It means anything from after pairings are announced (like when we get to pick reinforcements) to the actual act of setting up pieces on the board (Light Tutor, Dark Master, etc).
So both the "before setup" and "during setup" in the Paratroopers CE should mean that immediately before starting to place characters on the board (before setup) choose a guy and then while placing them on the board (during setup) put him adjacent to the paratrooper.
This is entirely different then "after setup" (ie pelleaon or 8th cortex, etc) when you choose to add stuff.
So the answer is 100% yes?
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I dont know what the definitions of During and before are in SWM....
but they seem to not mean the same thing as during and before in real life.
Is there a definitive definition for them?
Does this mean I can potentially light tutor someone and than haunt them with a ghost/spirit?
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Light Spirit wording
Light Spirit- Ignores characters and terrain. Cannot open doors. Cannot attack or be damaged, and does not count as a legal target, the nearest enemy, or adjacent. Not subject to commander effects. Does not provide cover. At the start of the skirmish, choose a Unique allied character with a Force rating. That ally gains Force Renewal 1 and Mettle while within 4 squares of this character. This character is defeated if the chosen ally is defeated. An enemy within 6 squares can spend 1 Force point to defeat this character; save 11. This effect replaces that enemy's attacks.)
Light tutor reads
Light Tutor - (At the start of the skirmish, choose an ally. If that ally does not have a Force rating, it gains Force 1 and can spend this Force point normally; it is considered to have a Force rating for the rest of the skirmish. If that ally already has a Force rating, it gains 1 Force point.)
Since both of these happen at the start of a skirmish, I would assume you get to choose the order, like in every other scenario like this in the game.
But the question is Before set up, and during set up.... I agree that BEFORE set up has to happen first.... And then DURING set up happens.... Then any AFTER set up.... And then AT THE START OF THE SKIRMISH..... Does this sound right to everyone?
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urbanjedi wrote:I would rule the answer is yes.
"during setup" unfortunately has many different meanings. It means anything from after pairings are announced (like when we get to pick reinforcements) to the actual act of setting up pieces on the board (Light Tutor, Dark Master, etc).
So both the "before setup" and "during setup" in the Paratroopers CE should mean that immediately before starting to place characters on the board (before setup) choose a guy and then while placing them on the board (during setup) put him adjacent to the paratrooper.
This is entirely different then "after setup" (ie pelleaon or 8th cortex, etc) when you choose to add stuff.
I don't know how I missed you saying this, but I just now read it, lol.
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shmi15 wrote:If I bring this guy in through my reinforcements, do I still get to use his CE?
his CE reads
Before setup, choose one Unique Yuuzhan Vong ally. During setup, place that ally adjacent to this character.
I don't know the timing of reinforcements and this CE. Fringe Reinforcements reads Fringe Reinforcements -( During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you can add up to 20 points of Fringe characters to your squad) The way I am reading this. The Paratrooper WOULD NOT be in the game to choose an Ally, as that happens BEFORE set up. And him being brought in through REINFORCEMENTS, which happens DURING SET UP. Is there something I am missing in this?
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shmi15 wrote:shmi15 wrote:If I bring this guy in through my reinforcements, do I still get to use his CE?
his CE reads
Before setup, choose one Unique Yuuzhan Vong ally. During setup, place that ally adjacent to this character.
I don't know the timing of reinforcements and this CE. Vong Reinforcements reads Vong Reinforcements -( During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you can add up to 20 points of Fringe characters to your squad) The way I am reading this. The Paratrooper WOULD NOT be in the game to choose an Ally, as that happens BEFORE set up. And him being brought in through REINFORCEMENTS, which happens DURING SET UP. Is there something I am missing in this? For the record, the 8th Cortex shapers CE says After setup, you may add 1 Yuuzhan Vong character without Outsider up to 18 points to your squad. The chosen character is considered a reinforcement and is placed adjacent to this character. While the Yammosks ability reads War Coordinator - ( During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you may choose one commander effect. This character gains this commander effect and any faction specific effects become Yuuzhan Vong specific effects.)
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Well that changes things..
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shmi15 wrote:
The way I am reading this. The Paratrooper WOULD NOT be in the game to choose an Ally, as that happens BEFORE set up. And him being brought in through REINFORCEMENTS, which happens DURING SET UP.
Is there something I am missing in this?
The issue is that leads to the question of when is "before setup" If during setup (ie when we choose reinforcements) is before we even roll for map, then when is "before setup"? When I am on the other side of the room, not even knowing who my opponent is? It was poor wording by WOTC for reinforcements and other abilities. There have been tons of wording and timing issues from WOTC that have never made sense that we have to work around and deal with the minutia of the wording and exactly how it is supposed to play out.
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urbanjedi wrote:shmi15 wrote:
The way I am reading this. The Paratrooper WOULD NOT be in the game to choose an Ally, as that happens BEFORE set up. And him being brought in through REINFORCEMENTS, which happens DURING SET UP.
Is there something I am missing in this?
The issue is that leads to the question of when is "before setup" If during setup (ie when we choose reinforcements) is before we even roll for map, then when is "before setup"? When I am on the other side of the room, not even knowing who my opponent is? It was poor wording by WOTC for reinforcements and other abilities. There have been tons of wording and timing issues from WOTC that have never made sense that we have to work around and deal with the minutia of the wording and exactly how it is supposed to play out. It seems easy to me to define... Before Set up - No characters on the map, and no option to put characters on map During Set Up- When Characters are being set Up This seems very reasonable.. And very assumable. I don't understand why you would have two separate terms to define the exact same thing? Its more reasonable, that with separate terms, one of them occurs before the other. Using definition of the words Before - during the period of time preceding (a particular event, date, or time). During - throughout the course or duration of (a period of time). Using the base definition of the words, I would also assume that the "before" occurs before the during. So I really am lost in this. One has to happen before the other. I see no other way honestly. Is there an actual rule stating these two terms are the same?
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Additionally,
"during setup" when I am supposed to be placing the paratrooper plus his carried guy on the board, I cannot do so. It is clearly a different timing than when I am picking a CE for telepathic insight or reinforcements. As in, we haven't rolled for map yet, so there is no way that I can place him on the map.
As I stated earlier, it probably should have been worded:
Immediately before placing this character on the map, choose an allied unique vong. When you place this character on the map, place the chosen ally adjacent.
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Relevant to the discussion: http://swmgamers.com/SWM/Rules/PreGame.htmlBut the words "before setup" aren't mentioned there.
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Here is the detailed version: Beginning of game
1. Players begin the pregame procedure by revealing their squads to each other.
2. Resolve “deferred squadbuilding” abilities that trigger after seeing the opponent’s squad. This includes Reinforcements and the first half of Bribery, for example. Players simultaneously reveal their decisions about bringing in additional characters.
3. Characters that are added to a squad via abilities like Reinforcements and Bribery are added to their squads. (Normally, order will not matter. If it does, order players randomly and resolve their abilities player by player.)
4. Other abilities that trigger after seeing the opponent’s squad activate. This includes Telepathic Insight and Con Artist, for example. Players with these abilities simultaneously reveal their decisions. (Normally, order will not matter. If it does, order players randomly and resolve their abilities player by player.)
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shmi15 wrote:urbanjedi wrote:shmi15 wrote:
The way I am reading this. The Paratrooper WOULD NOT be in the game to choose an Ally, as that happens BEFORE set up. And him being brought in through REINFORCEMENTS, which happens DURING SET UP.
Is there something I am missing in this?
The issue is that leads to the question of when is "before setup" If during setup (ie when we choose reinforcements) is before we even roll for map, then when is "before setup"? When I am on the other side of the room, not even knowing who my opponent is? It was poor wording by WOTC for reinforcements and other abilities. There have been tons of wording and timing issues from WOTC that have never made sense that we have to work around and deal with the minutia of the wording and exactly how it is supposed to play out. It seems easy to me to define... Before Set up - No characters on the map, and no option to put characters on map During Set Up- When Characters are being set Up This seems very reasonable.. And very assumable. I don't understand why you would have two separate terms to define the exact same thing? Its more reasonable, that with separate terms, one of them occurs before the other. Using definition of the words Before - during the period of time preceding (a particular event, date, or time). During - throughout the course or duration of (a period of time). Using the base definition of the words, I would also assume that the "before" occurs before the during. So I really am lost in this. One has to happen before the other. I see no other way honestly. Is there an actual rule stating these two terms are the same? Except we already know that "during setup" is before we have even rolled for map as that is when we choose reinforcements/telepathic insight/etc
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shmi15 wrote:Here is the detailed version: Beginning of game
1. Players begin the pregame procedure by revealing their squads to each other.
2. Resolve “deferred squadbuilding” abilities that trigger after seeing the opponent’s squad. This includes Reinforcements and the first half of Bribery, for example. Players simultaneously reveal their decisions about bringing in additional characters.
3. Characters that are added to a squad via abilities like Reinforcements and Bribery are added to their squads. (Normally, order will not matter. If it does, order players randomly and resolve their abilities player by player.)
4. Other abilities that trigger after seeing the opponent’s squad activate. This includes Telepathic Insight and Con Artist, for example. Players with these abilities simultaneously reveal their decisions. (Normally, order will not matter. If it does, order players randomly and resolve their abilities player by player.) So going by this, you do Before set up, then you do "during set up" then you place the pieces on the map.... Which means the Paratrooper can not even do what he is suppose to... like you said. Which means the piece is completely useless, and can't be used at all really? Atleast until an errata comes out for him. Useful knowledge. I wonder how many other things don't work the way we thought because of wording. This may be the biggest discovery yet. Will begin looking for odd interactions now
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urbanjedi wrote:shmi15 wrote:urbanjedi wrote:shmi15 wrote:
The way I am reading this. The Paratrooper WOULD NOT be in the game to choose an Ally, as that happens BEFORE set up. And him being brought in through REINFORCEMENTS, which happens DURING SET UP.
Is there something I am missing in this?
The issue is that leads to the question of when is "before setup" If during setup (ie when we choose reinforcements) is before we even roll for map, then when is "before setup"? When I am on the other side of the room, not even knowing who my opponent is? It was poor wording by WOTC for reinforcements and other abilities. There have been tons of wording and timing issues from WOTC that have never made sense that we have to work around and deal with the minutia of the wording and exactly how it is supposed to play out. It seems easy to me to define... Before Set up - No characters on the map, and no option to put characters on map During Set Up- When Characters are being set Up This seems very reasonable.. And very assumable. I don't understand why you would have two separate terms to define the exact same thing? Its more reasonable, that with separate terms, one of them occurs before the other. Using definition of the words Before - during the period of time preceding (a particular event, date, or time). During - throughout the course or duration of (a period of time). Using the base definition of the words, I would also assume that the "before" occurs before the during. So I really am lost in this. One has to happen before the other. I see no other way honestly. Is there an actual rule stating these two terms are the same? Except we already know that "during setup" is before we have even rolled for map as that is when we choose reinforcements/telepathic insight/etc I concede, you are correct. But now we know the Para trooper can not be used the way he is worded. Which means he needs to be changed. Balance Committee needs to view this, and begin the rewording of him. I think your suggestion is a good one. But, as of now, as far as I am concerned, the Paratrooper can not be used to in combination with Forward positioning. Per rules of the game and the wording on his card. Keep this in mind all Vong players. The Para trooper does not help you.
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This isn't a balance committee issue. This is a Swinefeld for final clarification issue.
If I Were judging a tourney, I just told you how I would rule on the spot, and then get clarification from Dave (or others) later.
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urbanjedi wrote:This isn't a balance committee issue. This is a Swinefeld for final clarification issue.
If I Were judging a tourney, I just told you how I would rule on the spot, and then get clarification from Dave (or others) later. You can't over rule the rules tho... Flying Arrow sent me a link to the list of rules. The rules clearly state, that abilities that happen "during set up" occur before you place pieces on the map. So how can you allow someone to place a piece on the map adjacent to the Paratrooper, if the Paratrooper isn't on the board to begin with? Again, his is the wording for you Before setup, choose one Unique Yuuzhan Vong ally. During setup, place that ally adjacent to this character. The "Before Set up" part, would take place in step 3 of set up ( no pieces on the board) Then "During set up" you place the character adjacent. Problem is, this step occur during Step 4 of set up ( still, no pieces on the board Step 5, you then place pieces on the board At which point, between 4/5 would you rule to allow him to set up his ParaTrooper and the ally he chose?
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