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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/18/2008 Posts: 1,097 Location: Kokomo
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Official Balance Committee RulingEffective Immediately: Card ErrataUnkar Plutt • add Low Caste (Cannot be added to a squad via any character’s Reinforcements or Reserves abilities. This character's cost cannot be reduced.) Sep 29, 2016Design begins on Unkar Plutt. Proposed as soft counter to MTB, MT, and Reserves. Apr 25, 2017Design on Unkar Plutt marked Done for printing. July 15th, 2017Urbanjedi wins NW Ohio Regional (16 players) with “Pong and Kazdan” http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20489&p=7August 8th, 2017BC discussion on Reserves squads with high probability of large amounts of Reserves in competitive play. An argument was made that getting 60 points on reserves should be limited with rules or changes. It's an unbalancing aspect that pertains to several figures. Preventing stacking is a more effective a solution than a counter. August 12, 2017Unkar stats revealed and Balance Committee notices negative community reception. A community poll suggests removing Unkar as a Reinforcement option. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=21808&p=4September - December, 2017Balance Committee holds further discussion on Reserves. January, 2018Balance Committee votes in favor of Reserves not stacking. Unkar tabled for later review and in favor of other needed discussions. February 1st, 2018Balance Committee rulings for 2018 announced. Unkar announcement that more time is needed. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22197February 2nd, 2018V-set 14 designers contacted concerning errata from the Balance Committee. February 4th, 2018Reassuring the community that we are evaluating Unkar. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=223536February 7th Increasing cost was discussed. At 21pts Unkar does not fit under-advantaged squads that Wager or Local Reserves 12 might benefit. It is already costly to lower act squads having to activate a Unique to use Wager. Local Reserves 12 only works in a lower act squad. Increase cost and Unkar becomes a very rare mainboard option in higher act squads. Low Caste was considered. February 7th- 18thCommunity outreach concerning Unkar and possible errata. February 18th Balance Committee votes in favor of adding Low Caste to Unkar. February 22ndOfficial announcement made on Sith Holonews Network Episode 406 http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/63807ERRATA CARD
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014 Posts: 2,098
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This is cute^^
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008 Posts: 4,729 Location: Chicago
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One key point missing from the summary above was vset 14 designers brainstorming and working with vset 16 designers to create a counter to Wager that would be placed on a fringe piece in vset 16.
Many believe that these issues should be solved through design, not through the balance committee.
That's not the route that was taken here.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 9/30/2008 Posts: 1,288
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Were there any voiced concerns about adding a special ability via errata for the first time? Adding Diminuitive to the Mouse Droid has been defended as a floor rules change for only competitive play, not an errata, and outside of that the solution has always been to remove or change problematic abilities or increase cost.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008 Posts: 4,729 Location: Chicago
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Echo24 wrote:Were there any voiced concerns about adding a special ability via errata for the first time? Adding Diminuitive to the Mouse Droid has been defended as a floor rules change for only competitive play, not an errata, and outside of that the solution has always been to remove or change problematic abilities or increase cost. Yes, there were
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 1/8/2010 Posts: 3,623
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TimmerB123 wrote:One key point missing from the summary above was vset 14 designers brainstorming and working with vset 16 designers to create a counter to Wager that would be placed on a fringe piece in vset 16.
Many believe that these issues should be solved through design, not through the balance committee.
That's not the route that was taken here. Designers also shouldn't be removing parts of the game they don't like based on personal opinions and not actual statistics and results, and thus causing this fiasco in the first place. Which was the route that we were on until the balance committee stepped up and did something. I personally preferred a straight ban on Unkar/Pong and rolling back the "only resolving one reserves roll per round" ruling but for peaceful continuation of the game I can accept and support compromise. Even on unwarranted things I don't agree on. The balance committee admitted their mistakes and did a solid thing here after realizing that doubling down on the reserves nerfing wasn't the right option, nor what the community and data were supporting. Fixing a problem instead of making counters to counters to counters is what the balance committee is here for and they did their job well.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/29/2008 Posts: 1,784 Location: Canada
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TimmerB123 wrote:One key point missing from the summary above was vset 14 designers brainstorming and working with vset 16 designers to create a counter to Wager that would be placed on a fringe piece in vset 16.
Many believe that these issues should be solved through design, not through the balance committee.
That's not the route that was taken here. Really? "Many" believe that? I'd be curious to know just how many. But in that case, then I'm sure there are also "many" others who don't think that counter-designs are the answer to abusive or bad game mechanics/designs. It's one thing to create pieces that counter certain mechanics or tactics that you expect your squad to struggle against; that's a good and interesting part of the game. But if there's a broken or flat out over-powered mechanic, I firmly believe that the answer is not to design a counter...rather, the answer is to bring it to the Balance Committee. General_Grievous wrote:Fixing a problem instead of making counters to counters to counters is what the balance committee is here for and they did their job well. I agree 100%. I appreciate the work of the BC.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/30/2015 Posts: 176
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Uh... can we have a better quality card please?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/18/2008 Posts: 1,097 Location: Kokomo
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 9/19/2008 Posts: 1,740 Location: Orange County, CA
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thereisnotry wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:One key point missing from the summary above was vset 14 designers brainstorming and working with vset 16 designers to create a counter to Wager that would be placed on a fringe piece in vset 16.
Many believe that these issues should be solved through design, not through the balance committee.
That's not the route that was taken here. Really? "Many" believe that? I'd be curious to know just how many. But in that case, then I'm sure there are also "many" others who don't think that counter-designs are the answer to abusive or bad game mechanics/designs. It's one thing to create pieces that counter certain mechanics or tactics that you expect your squad to struggle against; that's a good and interesting part of the game. But if there's a broken or flat out over-powered mechanic, I firmly believe that the answer is not to design a counter...rather, the answer is to bring it to the Balance Committee. Don't know if I'm part of the "many" but I think the Balance Committee should be the last choice, If its a Major flub, the designers should solve it; a minor problem can be countered. If we do the job correctly, errata's would be almost non-existant. Out of curiosity, is there a "minimum" amount of play testing that is considered suffiecient, or do we roll with what we have at deadline time? PS - Unkar looks Much better now .... , but How many months did it take??
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
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There's a pretty limited pool of play-testers now, so they really have to take what they can get. And often play-testers focus on the sexy Jedi stuff, and the broken stuff slips though under-tested.
With Unkar, he's actually mainly a theoretical piece, where play-testing doesn't really help. It's more about working out what effect he has on reserve squads vs what the MTB does, etc.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/18/2008 Posts: 1,097 Location: Kokomo
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#1: The Balance Committee can keep its own counsel on when it should act. #2: Suggested minimum amount of playtests. (Current set has 21 completed with 106 minimum remaining.) Power Level 5/6 = 2 playtests Power Level 7 = 3 playtests Power Level 8 = 4 playtests Power Level 9 = 5 playtests Power Level 10 = 6 playtests #3: Six months. Unkar announced and cards sent out August 2017 and BC made errata February 2018. Join in on this Playtest fun! Send me a BM and I will send you a design from V-Set 16!! Remember kids, every playtest could save a life.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/30/2015 Posts: 176
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NOW, THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!
thanks.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014 Posts: 2,098
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The balance committee can't decide when to act on their own. Otherwise they would not represent the community.
Dd are you on the balance committee? Lead designer, balance committee member. Etc Etc So if 21 playtest S have occurred how many games is that probably around 9-11. So a fifth the play tests have been completed in what I would guess are 10 games. 50 games a set roughly.
Not close to enough. It is time to get new faces in design and in charge of the game.
Dedicated people to mix in with the old guard. General grievous should be designer soon and balance committee member. He is the"patriarch" of a play group.
If you gave pt more power I would rejoin. If you didn't get your panties in a wad over everything people might be more inclined to accept you as a leader.
"Oh no here is jen'ari attacking someone again"
Balance committee failed with unkarr Design committee is currently failing because the designers don't give half a rats butt and don't even vote on things.
So this set will be under discussed, be under changed and under play tested.
About time you all started carrying to the people sucking around a bit more and not have this
Design team will act when they feel like it attitude
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 8/29/2017 Posts: 278
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The Balance Committee is trying very hard to reduce the number of announcements to once a year in January. This allows everyone to know well in advance of any Regionals and gives them time to make changes accordingly. We also do not want to pollute any information the Regionals can give competitors before Gencon, and other large tournaments, by making any unnecessary changes in between. Naturally, emergency errata for the extremely broken is never off the table.
To anyone that doesn't like how the swmgamers team appears to be operating. Get involved, and I am not just talking about play testing. We need more social media admins and content makers/managers. We need help on building a new website. We need help on updating the SWM vassal mod. We need help working on the Unreal Engine game maker. We need youtube tutorials made for new players We need written articles for everything from the importance of door control to out activating to map options We need play reports for people to analyze We need log files from Vassal matches placed on Youtube so we can watch other peoples matches
Ask if different people need help with something, if you see a need in the community then see if you can fill it! And finally yeah, being an active play tester is a lot of help!!
Lastly, if you think a designer isn't pulling their weight, well just talk to them about it. They may not be doing enough for the set, but there me be a good reason for that. I know I had to take a break from minis a little after my Grandma died last September. Though possibly, they may just be talking to the other designers in another forum or even over the phone. (Gasp) Surprisingly not every discussion on a piece happens in the designer forums on gamers. Some conversations are better had over the phone to prevent being misunderstood.
Just some food for thought, have a great day everyone! Cheers
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014 Posts: 2,098
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Darth_Frenchy wrote:The Balance Committee is trying very hard to reduce the number of announcements to once a year in January. This allows everyone to know well in advance of any Regionals and gives them time to make changes accordingly. We also do not want to pollute any information the Regionals can give competitors before Gencon, and other large tournaments, by making any unnecessary changes in between. Naturally, emergency errata for the extremely broken is never off the table. except that regionals do not matter anymore, people bring tier 1.5 things to regionals all the time. It is just a fun time. Also, the good of the game is the more important part. balance committee should be active all the time. especially after a set is dropped. Darth_Frenchy wrote: Lastly, if you think a designer isn't pulling their weight, well just talk to them about it. They may not be doing enough for the set, but there me be a good reason for that. I know I had to take a break from minis a little after my Grandma died last September. Though possibly, they may just be talking to the other designers in another forum or even over the phone. (Gasp) Surprisingly not every discussion on a piece happens in the designer forums on gamers. Some conversations are better had over the phone to prevent being misunderstood.
this is simply dumb... the whole point of having a forum would be to have conversations where everyone can be involved and secret combinations do not form where two people are forming their opinion knowing good and well they can steamroll others. Open design is fair design. [gasp] it allows for more voices to be heard. Votes are done publicly. pieces are pushed through with the lead designer saying "ok, it has been two weeks and no one has posted so I am pushing it through to play testing" this does not scream phone conversations, this screams inactivity. If a designer has something going on, that stinks, but life happens, either you pass the torch or you find a way to fulfill your role. We all have important things and unexpected things happen all the time. Conversations in a design thread should be almost exclusively done on the boards.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 1/30/2009 Posts: 6,457 Location: Southern Illinois
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jen'ari wrote: Conversations in a design thread should be almost exclusively done on the boards.
Once initial designs are posted and tweaking begins, I agree with this. If a rules issue comes up, or QC misses something somewhere (and those two things can easily go hand in hand) having an unbroken record of discussion is important. That's my main issue, so I'll just leave just there. Edit: I will add, that if a conversation does happen out of the threads for a necessary reason, a clear summary of that discussion should be posted in the design thread. That happens from time to time, and so as long as the important details are there (who, what was discussed, conclusions) that's ok.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/27/2008 Posts: 1,191 Location: Los Angeles, California
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DarkDracul wrote:Official Balance Committee RulingEffective Immediately: Card ErrataUnkar Plutt • add Low Caste (Cannot be added to a squad via any character’s Reinforcements or Reserves abilities. This character's cost cannot be reduced.) Sep 29, 2016Design begins on Unkar Plutt. Proposed as soft counter to MTB, MT, and Reserves. Apr 25, 2017Design on Unkar Plutt marked Done for printing. July 15th, 2017Urbanjedi wins NW Ohio Regional (16 players) with “Pong and Kazdan” http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20489&p=7August 8th, 2017BC discussion on Reserves squads with high probability of large amounts of Reserves in competitive play. An argument was made that getting 60 points on reserves should be limited with rules or changes. It's an unbalancing aspect that pertains to several figures. Preventing stacking is a more effective a solution than a counter. August 12, 2017Unkar stats revealed and Balance Committee notices negative community reception. A community poll suggests removing Unkar as a Reinforcement option. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=21808&p=4September - December, 2017Balance Committee holds further discussion on Reserves. January, 2018Balance Committee votes in favor of Reserves not stacking. Unkar tabled for later review and in favor of other needed discussions. February 1st, 2018Balance Committee rulings for 2018 announced. Unkar announcement that more time is needed. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22197February 2nd, 2018V-set 14 designers contacted concerning errata from the Balance Committee. February 4th, 2018Reassuring the community that we are evaluating Unkar. http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=223536February 7th Increasing cost was discussed. At 21pts Unkar does not fit under-advantaged squads that Wager or Local Reserves 12 might benefit. It is already costly to lower act squads having to activate a Unique to use Wager. Local Reserves 12 only works in a lower act squad. Increase cost and Unkar becomes a very rare mainboard option in higher act squads. Low Caste was considered. February 7th- 18thCommunity outreach concerning Unkar and possible errata. February 18th Balance Committee votes in favor of adding Low Caste to Unkar. February 22ndOfficial announcement made on Sith Holonews Network Episode 406 http://www.talkshoe.com/tc/63807ERRATA CARD
Please update in Official Rulings Section!
Thank you This post is slowly going away forever...………………………………………..
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