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CCC Week 120 - The Grand Army of the Republic Options
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 12:35:57 PM
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Despite many Order 66 characters being created by the V-sets, the Republic still has very few competitive clone builds.
This week's challenge is to create a custom character that makes clones better or is a better clone grunt.

Rules:

1. The character must be canonical to either of the Canon or Legends continuities and from the chosen faction when required. They can have affinity, but the character must start in the chosen faction.

2. You may update any existing versions you already have and/or create a new one. You may update/create several versions of the character but you must ultimately select 1 you wish to run with. (this must be done by the schedule below)

3. Place a hyperlink in this forum to make it easier to find your character. You can just post the stats or image here but if changes are needed it would be easier (and save space) if you just used a Hyperlink (If you don't know how to post Hyperlinks in a forum setting please ask and we will help you. It's not hard )

4. Voting works as follows, pick your three favorite customs based on accuracy to the character, design, balance or whatever you decide makes the best incarnation of the challenge character. First place receives 3 points, 2nd place receives 2 points, and 3rd place receives 1 point.

5. You do not have to enter the contest in order to vote. But unless you enter you must have at lest 10 forum posts.

6. To make things fair you must vote in order to win the contest. You must choose three characters entered in the contest and you may not rate or vote for your own character.

7. The winner will be decided by how many points they receive. Ties will be broken by most 1st place votes, then if still tied, 2nd place votes and then 3rd place votes. If still tied, then the outcome is a tie.

8. You may not change or update the entered character AFTER the deadline.



You will have until Sat, Sep 8th, 2018 @8pm EST to get your submissions in. Anything submitted after this point will not be included in the voting.


Voting will start at 8pm on Saturday evening and end at 11pm EST on Monday, Sep 10th, 2018.

At the conclusion of the voting the scores will be tallied and the winner will start a new topic with their choice of theme.
jak
Posted: Tuesday, September 4, 2018 4:05:05 PM
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adamb0nd
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 6:32:37 AM
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Oakel
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 1:27:15 PM
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Currently contemplating two options. One tries to lock-in some competitive edges to the Wolfpack subfaction by providing some defenses and a suppressive fire option, the shotgun-toting "Boost".

Wolfpack Sergeant "Boost"

The second is an incredibly powerful boost to general Republic troops against big bad Jedi, but forces the squad to avoid force users (nearly) altogether. The character to capture the ultimate betrayal of the Jedi.

Commander Cody of Order 66
surf_rider56
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 6:51:59 PM
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It's Waaay to easy to turn a Jedi into a Clone Booster and also too easy to use a known unique Clone Commander as well. The old WOTC had several non-unique Captains/Commanders so I thought I'd go that route.


Now, what's wrong with your basic Clone Trooper?

Hit Points 10 - Can't change that; never been done in the game and I'm not touching That line in the sand.
Defense 13 - Dies to easy, but can be fixed.
Attack 6 - Not horrible but not great.
Damage 20. Quite acceptable.
Cost 9. Not quite worth it; they die too easy.


The HP, can't touch but Def. and Attack … those can be worked on.

Advantageous Cover - Judicious use can boost a Clone's Defense to 21; quite acceptable.

Agile - Could be quite the movement breaker with 4+ Troopers in a squad.

Ex. Matters - Just an explanation, frankly, of how a "Trooper" can gain enough experience to be a "Veteran" and justify CE abilities. What IS a veteran? Someone who learns when to duck and when to take risks. Dumb soldiers never survive their first firefight.

Loyal - Sort of the Anti Order 66; most Clones rolled with Order 66, but not All.

Rapport - Coupled with the other abilities, a cost of 6 is more workable as a squad solution within limitations.

CE - Gives the Clones AD. Cover, Agile and a further movement jolt; an extra of 4 totals squares moved possibly After activations.


It is what it is and it was just sitting there so … whatever


Veteran Clone Trooper Captain






S







Oakel
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2018 5:02:11 PM
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Surf,

I like the core ideas you presented. Advantageous cover is an excellent fit, and more mobility is definitely the right direction for making the Republic more competitive.

A couple questions:
Experience matters: if you want a delay, why so soon? Otherwise why not have him grant that to characters named Clone Trooper at the start of the skirmish? Or maybe make it more about imparting tactics or rallying the troops, and replace attacks to grant it to all adjacent?

For the CE, did you mean for it to stack or not? Would a Veteran gain Agile and also be able to move 2 as well?

Lastly, I made a comment on Jak's piece about its Rapport, and I would raise similar questions to you:
This character pays for itself with 9 troopers in your squad. All the other bonuses it provides (besides being a decent attacker itself) are effectively free. Is this too good for it's cost? Could it be game breaking instead of just competitive? I am under the impression that it may be too great a benefit for the cost, and would promote large scale swarms akin to the Poggle debacle.

Again, I think you have hit on the right core elements that could improve the Republic greatly, but this piece as it stands seems really strong.
surf_rider56
Posted: Friday, September 7, 2018 6:26:07 AM
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Oakel wrote:
Surf,

I like the core ideas you presented. Advantageous cover is an excellent fit, and more mobility is definitely the right direction for making the Republic more competitive.

A couple questions:
Experience matters: if you want a delay, why so soon? Otherwise why not have him grant that to characters named Clone Trooper at the start of the skirmish? Or maybe make it more about imparting tactics or rallying the troops, and replace attacks to grant it to all adjacent?

For the CE, did you mean for it to stack or not? Would a Veteran gain Agile and also be able to move 2 as well?

Lastly, I made a comment on Jak's piece about its Rapport, and I would raise similar questions to you:
This character pays for itself with 9 troopers in your squad. All the other bonuses it provides (besides being a decent attacker itself) are effectively free. Is this too good for it's cost? Could it be game breaking instead of just competitive? I am under the impression that it may be too great a benefit for the cost, and would promote large scale swarms akin to the Poggle debacle.

Again, I think you have hit on the right core elements that could improve the Republic greatly, but this piece as it stands seems really strong.


Experience - What a "Veteran" is/when it occurs could be argued forever; for game mechanics & Simplicity, I just arbitrarily made it after the first round is done.

CE - Yes, stack it. Clones were reasonably relentless; let them keep coming at you.

Lastly, Rapport & the Captain's cost; Jen, Jak and a host of others have been complaining/clamoring for Meta this and Power Level that ... so I give you a piece thats dirt cheap yet causes mayhem and now its too strong?? Well, I guess you can't please everyone .....
Oakel
Posted: Friday, September 7, 2018 8:39:18 AM
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Surf,

Thanks for clarifying regarding Experience and the CE.

I want to be clear, its not that I am displeased with your piece. I would gladly play it, and certainly enjoy it!

I am trying to consider what life on the other side of the table from this piece would be as well. Given that something similar happened with Non-errata Poggle, I wanted to hear your thoughts on how this piece would avoid the similar pitfalls. In this case, a massive swarm of cost 2 units (Raxus Troopers) that are strong enough to defeat much more expensive characters.

You are right to say that I usually err on the side of caution when it comes to customs, (as I prefer them to only gently challenge the existing game) I hope that does not dissuade you from answering from your aspirations of what this piece could accomplish, and also how it would be balanced for the opponent.

surf_rider56
Posted: Friday, September 7, 2018 9:09:26 AM
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Oakel wrote:
Surf,

....a massive swarm of cost 2 units (Raxus Troopers) that are strong enough to defeat much more expensive characters.



This is where it could be tricky; its "Meant" to be only for Clone Troopers, not just any Republic Trooper. Not Spaarti, not Raxus, Not 501st, heck, not even Clone Trooper Gunners or Grenadiers ... just Clone Troopers. It'd probably be one of those explanations where the "Card Test" would be shortened and the "Glossary Text" would give the complete definition of the ability .....
Oakel
Posted: Friday, September 7, 2018 9:40:13 AM
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That's the key I was missing! Got it. Thank you for clarifying, and that makes a whole lot more sense.

Edit: I realize that I meant Spaarti before. Thanks for catching that.
jak
Posted: Saturday, September 8, 2018 4:15:36 AM
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here is a non-entry to enjoy
www.bloomilk.com/Custom/35318/gen--skywalker-and-cpt--rex

would make Clone troopers playableThumpUp
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, September 8, 2018 8:34:04 AM
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Here is my take on it, I'm all about simplicty and forced simpler squad-building these days haha:

http://www.bloomilk.com/Custom/35327/clone-trooper-marshal-commander
General_Grievous
Posted: Saturday, September 8, 2018 8:41:14 AM
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surf_rider56 wrote:



Veteran Clone Trooper Captain






S








Surf I really like your piece and it's definitely a solid booster, my only two comments is maybe dropping the Experience Matters just to simplify tracking which of the clone swarm has the boost and which doesn't, especially since all troopers should get it by the end of the first round. Then obviously tweaking the CE to just say clown troopers. Thematically that ability is cool but mechanically I think it's harder to track and over complicated. If you want to still keep some sort of veteran status then you could change it to something along the lines of Boss's CE that grants an extra turn/attack to a nearby clone Trooper. Or even just a straight adjacent characters gain double attack or some such bit.
Oakel
Posted: Sunday, September 9, 2018 9:38:44 AM
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Well, since I don't see votes yet:

Cody is my submission. Sorry for the delay.
adamb0nd
Posted: Sunday, September 9, 2018 2:12:28 PM
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Insight on my link above...

Not 100% my idea. The star wars saga d20 rpg that was meant to be used with swm had the idea of combining multiple low challenge level grunts into a single large base unit. The idea being you could throw more grunts at a higher level party without slowing the game down with tons of activations. Their solution saw higher attacks and defenses on a squad, a splash damage attack to stimulate multi attacks, and receives double damage from area effect attacks.

My own creation focused on the general concept that fewer activations is better. I'd much rather reward a player for running bulk clones with more staying power, while not promoting ultra high activations.

What I like the most about this concept is I feel like it's a simple template/equation that could improve any non unique genetic
surf_rider56
Posted: Sunday, September 9, 2018 4:15:12 PM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Insight on my link above...

Not 100% my idea.


Actually, if anything it reminds me of Warcraft 40k (unit pieces instead of individuals.) I'm not sure how I feel about that whole thing but I Do understand the concept and the rationale behind it.



Regarding the entries this week ….



jak - Ayala Secura. As others have mentioned, I'm not going anyway near the issues she brings up. Instead I'm just going to mention it continues to bother me that Jedi give anything to Clone Troopers; Order 66 and what clones get is already too much; although I acknowwledge that's just me.

adam - Clone squad. As I said above, not sure how I feel about a "Squad" although there IS precedent for multi characte pieces.

Oak - Cm. Cody. The only thing I can compare it to is Rex/501st, who has Smaller base stats (3 of 4,) fewer abilities (7 Abilities to 3,) and Rex costs 1 more. Sounds a bit much.

GG - Clone Marshall. Didn't you yourself say with extra attacks and GMA, Twin was dangerous? Now they get Double, +4 Synergy and give Disciplined too? Not sure what to say about any of this




Time to think ....


s
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, September 10, 2018 5:23:37 AM
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1. General_Grievous
2. Oakel
3. Jak

Really liked all 3 of your pieces. Wish they were real.
Oakel
Posted: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:08:13 AM
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1. General Grievous - Beautifully simple design. Would definitely make clone squads competitive against Bastila/Disruptive. Good job limiting it to two CE's. I would love to run a squad with him.

2. Adamb0nd - I like the idea, and your explanation of creating pieces that adjust away from activations has settled it in my mind. I would love to see this idea fleshed out in order to potentially address the huge activation focus this game has currently, and get it away from so much activation fodder.

3. Surf - I like the boost to simple clone troopers. A little cleanup in terms of clarifying only characters named Clone Trooper and that is a solid piece that does a great job at making old WOTC pieces much more viable. Not sure how much I like units to be able to move another 4 spaces after they end their turn though, it would just need to be playtested.

Jak - In my opinion, if you focused down the power that Aayla gives out to a smaller niche, she would be a much stronger contribution. That way there would be clear uses, and clear places where she would not work. As it stands now, she would be an auto-include in any republic shooter squad.

Jak and Surf - both of your pieces have a rapport -3 which makes me nervous, even for a single non-unique character. I know costing and things that effect costing are complicated and very subjective. In my opinion, a rapport like that can be incredibly volatile, as the ability's strength is multiplied by the number of characters when supplied with CE's. The stronger the rapport, the more powerful. Across a 200 point squad, rapport -3 could realistically mean up to 30 additional points of characters.

Good work all.
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, September 10, 2018 11:10:31 AM
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Jak, a simple and proven boost that would definitely help. I do think Twin might be too much combined with what they can already do and get, especially with the blanket rapport meaning it will mostly be spaarti's leading the way here. That being said it would be nice to see Clones make a return more than the Republic Commandos and Naboo archetypes. And we all need more Aayla in our lives.

Adam, normally not a fan of the combined squad base ideas but you executed yours really simply and love that it can turn into rogue units when the squad is destroyed.

Oakel, a very powerful clone Leader and the one we see in the latter part of ROTS, so great stuff there. Still a bit Ability heavy in terms of what he has and hands out though but the theme of getting close to your enemy and ambushing them with a surprise attack makes this the most well executed Order 66 theme out there.

Surf, likewise awesome character and boosts, I think he just needs a few things trimmed down for simplicity and then he's great. Also in regards to your comments on my piece:
to me Double and Extra attack is less bad then Twin and extra attack. One whole less attack, and it forces one to bring in Rex if you want the mobility, or play the stationary Cody game if you want the extra attack. I think the limiting to only one other commander allows this piece to be competitive and yet toned down enough that you have to pick which one other commander you want to build with and there are plenty of other Jedi and Clone Commanders that you can choose from.


All in all a hard week to vote on, everyone accomplished the mission very well in their own way and using different methods entirely. I think this is the most diverse and interesting response to a simple challenge I've seen yet. Makes it very hard to vote but in the end I'll go with the ones I would like to see most out of the excellent entries.



3rd Adam
2nd Surf
1st Oakel



Side note where did Gandalf go? Posted an excellent week and I was hoping to see an entry from him, must be fighting a Balrog on a bridge somewhere. Haha
General_Grievous
Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 5:15:33 AM
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No votes from Jak or Surf which means it looks like it narrowly comes down to me. Very good week though guys. Excellent stuff and genius diverse ideas. I'll contemplate and post something up later on.
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