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Discussion thread for possible restricted map list changes Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 1:16:32 PM
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Current list:

Bothan Spynet (Spynet HQ)
Cantina
Outlaw City
Ravaged Base (Commander's Office)
Rhen Var (Ice World Citadel)
Starport District
Starport Terminal
Throne Room


Propose changes, either maps to add or maps to subtract. List reasons why.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 1:32:58 PM
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In general I think better maps overall for the game are ones that don't innately benefit certain squad types.

Sure, if a map benefits the squad type you like to play, you're going to love that map. That doesn't mean that it's overall good for the game.

There are 2 maps on the current list that I think inordinately benefit very specific squadtypes.

1. Outlaw City.
At first it feels like a map that multiple squad types can compete on, but in actuality it has proven to really benefit one major squad type over so many others. Highly mobile shooters with strong Disruptive. I've seen players use the claustrophobic quarters of the center cluster of rooms completely shut down any opportunity to crack into the cocoon without being blown away. The abundance of green lined squares (low cover) is an issue for melee to slog through, and advantages Mira and her still 100% functional rigged detonators double grenades. Unlike Cantina (also a ton of green), it's very easy to get within 6 without being hit. The latest change to Rigged Detonators is useful for Cantina, but does virtually nothing for Outlaw City. It also has a several 1 square wide doors that can easily be blocked to turtle up in. It's an extreme map that can be used to amazing effect with a very narrow squad type, mainly Mandos with Mandalore the Vindicated.

2. Starport Terminal.
Shooters paradise. Once doors get open you can shoot all the way across the map. High powered shooters and uber fast melee (especially when CLOAKED - IE Nightsisters) are just so hard to overcome. Especially with additional movement. I have found that games last LONGER on this map because there is so much cat and mouse, with so little safe spaces. Advancement is very hard for anything without Cloaked or uber fast movement breakers. Jabba squads, Nightsisters, Jabba Nightsisters just dominate on it.


I think these 2 definitely need to be replaced. The other maps have balancing factors that make them ok to stay.
TimmerB123
Posted: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:50:25 PM
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Courtesy of Darth Porg



As you can see, Outlaw City has to go!
Caedus
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:02:46 AM
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^^ That's Cantina ^^
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:29:24 AM
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Yes, beefy disruptive with Mira is dynamite on the Outlaw City map. Talon is very good on this map, as is the Vindicated/Kelborn combo. And that's partially why I raised the issue of RD in the first place. The other map that Mira was dynamite on was Cantina, but now that RD only applies to her Grenades, she's definitely lost a step on that map (but she's still very good).

Apart from these 2 maps (perhaps others too?) I think she's not nearly so much of a problem.

TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 11:28:40 AM
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Caedus wrote:
^^ That's Cantina ^^

Corrected
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 11:30:39 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Apart from these 2 maps (perhaps others too?) I think she's not nearly so much of a problem.

Those 2 maps are definitely the biggest problems with Mira, and with the change to Rigged Detonators I think Cantina is ok now, but not Outlaw City (IMO).
Caedus
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 11:52:35 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Apart from these 2 maps (perhaps others too?) I think she's not nearly so much of a problem.

Those 2 maps are definitely the biggest problems with Mira, and with the change to Rigged Detonators I think Cantina is ok now, but not Outlaw City (IMO).


IMO the biggest problem with this map are the choke points in general. This map getting added was an oversight by me, but too far along to make a correction. this map was a problem well before this year and, like I stated, a complete oversight by myself. Not only heavy disruption, but heavy distraction is king on this map. Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors were a HUGE problem the last time it was on the restricted list and for that reason it will get a huge timeout.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 11:56:05 AM
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Caedus wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Apart from these 2 maps (perhaps others too?) I think she's not nearly so much of a problem.

Those 2 maps are definitely the biggest problems with Mira, and with the change to Rigged Detonators I think Cantina is ok now, but not Outlaw City (IMO).


IMO the biggest problem with this map are the choke points in general. This map getting added was an oversight by me, but too far along to make a correction. this map was a problem well before this year and, like I stated, a complete oversight by myself. Not only heavy disruption, but heavy distraction is king on this map. Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors were a HUGE problem the last time it was on the restricted list and for that reason it will get a huge timeout.


Yes, I mentioned the choke points earlier I certainly agree. Excellent point about sturdy distraction as well. The latest post of mine was just distinguishing how the change to RD made a bigger impact on Cantina than Outlaw City. I’d be fine either way with Cantina, it can go or stay. Glad to hear Outlaw City won’t be on the next restricted list.
Udorian84
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 12:04:27 PM
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Who makes the restricted list? Is there a map committee same way as a balance committee?
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 1:27:33 PM
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Udorian84 wrote:
Who makes the restricted list? Is there a map committee same way as a balance committee?


Caedus heads that. He’s very open to input. Add whatever thoughts you have to this thread.
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 5:29:51 AM
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Asteroid Base has lots of green in the center (and elsewhere).
Anchorhead's center room is almost entirely green terrain (or adj to green).
Smuggler's Base has almost no safe squares in the center room.
Starport Terminal...
Starport District...

So yeah, it's not just Cantina and Outlaw City.

Udorian84
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 6:34:41 AM
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I would find a way to have a "new map" reveal right before a tournament that people can use.

I think the map list is so well known the ones that play the most on them just memorize everything about it. They already have their first 2 moves (set up moves) memorized on what is best for angles, cover, etc.

I have played people who don't even count, they just move their piece because they know exactly what they want already.

If you put out a new map the night before vassalcon, that people could play on, now that would be AWESOME!

It would also level the playing field for those that haven't spent over a decade on some of the maps. (if they make the map roll)
Udorian84
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 11:41:46 AM
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I just got on vassal and looked at every map on vassal. I really enjoy the "Theed Palace" map. It doesn't have direct lines to Gambit, but Gambit is decently open. It has green squares in different places. It also has walls to hide behind that make it a tad more difficult to be found. It has doors that need to be gone through to get to Gambit.

It looks fun to me.
kezzamachine
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 12:57:45 PM
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My favourite map of all time is OFF WORLD CARGO DOCKS!

#letsmakeithappen
#cargodockscargorocks
#nooneagreeswithme
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 1:08:13 PM
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kezzamachine wrote:
My favourite map of all time is OFF WORLD CARGO DOCKS!

#letsmakeithappen
#cargodockscargorocks
#nooneagreeswithme


I like it.
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 2:54:54 PM
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Crime Lord’s Palace is an absolute favourite of mine and is one of the very few huge friendly maps out there that isn’t totally wide open. I’m all about huge friendly maps as they almost always get overlooked and thus contribute to that playstyle not being able to be competitive. So bring back imperial base/throne room, rancor pit, and starship ROTS too.

I would like to see more siege style maps make it on such as ravaged base, ossus platform, night club, endor, yavin 4, and the Alien Warzone map. I mean realistically if you pick one of those maps you know you are starting outside at a disadvantage and they are much more huge friendly and usually feel like epic attack-style battles.


Also mass transit 3 boarding action is just a gorgeous and thematic map too.
DarkDracul
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 3:04:59 PM
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kezzamachine wrote:
My favourite map of all time is OFF WORLD CARGO DOCKS!

#letsmakeithappen
#cargodockscargorocks
#nooneagreeswithme



It's a fun map but horrible for competitive play, I doubt it would make it through the season before being removed.

It's a visual mess of clutter with inappropriate line art.

The gambit area is a narrow corridor with a large pit.

It cuts out 9 gambit squares, 7 are walled off and 2 are in the pit.

Of the available gambit squares, only 2 are not adjacent to low cover or a pit.

Fastest route to gambit from the left is 19 squares, well protected, and offers great los on an approaching enemy.

Fastest route to gambit from the right side is 17 squares and ends adjacent to the large pit.






imyurhukaberry
Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2021 6:39:06 PM
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What if someone came up with a fix that overlays the center of the map?
I remember when they had a fix for the Rancor Pit that allowed a second passage to get across the map.
I will have to dig that up…
thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, August 19, 2021 12:17:29 PM
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imyurhukaberry wrote:
What if someone came up with a fix that overlays the center of the map?
I remember when they had a fix for the Rancor Pit that allowed a second passage to get across the map.
I will have to dig that up…

The Rancor Pit fix tile is actually in Vassal. It's somewhere in the Tiles menu.
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