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SWM Cube Draft Options
hector
Posted: Friday, July 1, 2022 11:51:35 AM
Rank: Ugnaught Demolitionist
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/18/2010
Posts: 3
I recently started playing the game again with my brother after a long break. We created a cube to draft from using our collection which has been a ton of fun. A cube for those that don't know is a set of cards (and in this game accompanying minis) that is curated to allow for limited play i.e. draft/sealed. Currently we are doing rainbow squads with the cube's power level being not too high. We haven't added any V-set cards yet but probably will soon. As anyone who has made a cube in other games (usually TCGs) knows, it is a learning process with tweaks being constantly made to see what works and what doesn't.

I was wondering if anyone had experimented in the past with crafted limited formats like this?
Cassus fett
Posted: Friday, July 1, 2022 3:27:11 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/10/2010
Posts: 756
Location: The Shadowlands of Kashyyyk
Can't say I've ever tried harder than Straight Out of the Box format when it comes to limited or draft in this game. When I played FFG's Star Wars Destiny Game we did a lot of case drafts though.
I'm sure Kobyashi will pop by and give you an exhaustive, barely understandable list of all your options.
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, July 2, 2022 5:53:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,783
Location: Canada
I don't understand this "cube" thing....

...do you stack them in a pile so that they're as tall as they are wide? And if you sleeve your cards...is it okay if your "cube" then holds less cards?

I do remember playing in a tournament where we added 1 set at a time: starting off with just RS pieces to choose from, then adding CS, then RotS, then UH, then CotF, etc, etc. It was a lot of fun. If you want a limited pool of characters to choose from then I'd highly recommend that.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Saturday, July 2, 2022 6:04:18 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
@CassusFett
I see my reputation precedes me LOL
Compositions? Check. "Cube" Check. SWMinis? Check.
cue The Simpsons Meme "They're all here?!" <--- Principal Skinner.
Quote:
I'm sure Kobyashi will pop by and give you an exhaustive,
barely understandable? |<----Laugh it's english just, not as we yet know it.|
list of all your options.

I'm sure they will BlooMilk ,
though I hear, that Kobayashimaru exiled themselves from other webpresences for less ThumbsUp


@Original Poster (In This Case, Hector)
Initial Observation:
"WOW", 2010 join date, 'long time lurker, first time poster"?
Tangent, is that your actual join date at Bloomilk, if so, impressive to go 12 years prior to posting.

#aforceghostappears
Greetings, Welcome to Bloomilk, BoardgameGeek, LeadAdventure.de and or,
other webpresences where Kobayashimaru may or may not be present.

Quote:
I was wondering if anyone had experimented in the past with crafted limited formats like this?

Short Answer;
Yes, different recreations usually to recreate the meta of a specific historical chronological release.
Ie, Rebel Storm, RebelStorm+CloneStrike etc... BigGrin
we use only the pieces between |Date| and |Date|, to go back and see if there was any
Meta Combinatorics in Squad Pieces we missed etc.
SWMinis Compositions, are like "Chess Compositions", only,
we have Squad Composition, GameState and Map / Terrain etc.


That's an interesting way to re-learn what has been unlearned, Hector,
I commend that innovative approach,
to 'return from AwayFromGame" / "Re-Teach Yourself SWMinis". It's quite a
"Unlearn, what you have learned" "meta-move" BigGrin

I found FlyingArrow (Shock horror, we get along?! Who'da thunk it) had great tutorials,
and there are a couple handy go-to tutes at Wizards of The Coast via Wayback TimeMachine,


That seems to be a MagicTheGathering / WizardsofTheCoast / "Fenix y Fenghuang (Myths & LegendsTCG) approach to return to SWMinis;
I am likewise interested to see if that's an effective way to return to gaming,
in the post-COVID 'return to real-world physical gaming GENCON etc" events etc.
On that tangent, we could cross-ref all the known techniques to the play-gamestates from the 2022-2023 seasons as
"Recovery SWMinis etc", we can contrast to 2002-2012, 2012 to 2020, and '20-'22.
and contrast them to
the methods I outline at The Electronic Journal of Combinatorics (EJC).
I made different 'solitaire" modes of SWMINIS Plays, VASSAL, Boardgame Emulator and heck,
I've even made Yoda Stories into a SWMinis Mode Emulator (at GoodOlGames) etc.
Handy for when the Hangouts/Discords and live-correspondence modes are outta commission.

SWMinis is based on a very similar game from a certain 1960s paper by none-other-than
Stephen Wolfram. yes, as in "Digital Informational Physics" That Mr Wolfram.
(He replied to my previous questions if SWMinis was, "P-NP Complete", or
only bounded by the combinatorics of turn length).
We settled on a loose limit being moreso;
1) Limit of Legible Font Per Card
2) Time Duration of Turn,
and
3) "When is a game, dead?" see the NexusModsManager forum chat on that BigGrin

In any event.
I look forward to seeing folks responses.
Thanks for asking a great question Hector.
Kobayashimaru.
hector
Posted: Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:10:59 PM
Rank: Ugnaught Demolitionist
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/18/2010
Posts: 3
@thereisnotry

Usually cubes (a hand-picked group of cards/minis) are drafted between a group of people in simulated packs like it was an official set released by the developers. The common pick one card and pass the pack around would probably work with SWM. Of course, there are people who don't have a large group to draft with so there have been many clever ways developed of drafting with just a few people. It doesn't really matter which way is used as long as it allows for a decent amount of choices and competition between the people drafting. Part of the reason we are doing all faction squads is with only two people there would be little conflict between each of us if we just decided to go for different factions. With more people or a limited amount of factions in the cube, I could see certain faction restrictions being viable (maybe themed light vs dark).


@kobayashimaru

Yeah I joined in 2010 but I was just a kid getting into the game late after it was discontinued. Despite getting into it as it was ending, I actually attended a LGS league throughout the first couple V-sets. After the league shutdown I stopped playing but luckily kept my collection which now I am trying to potentially add to.
TheHutts
Posted: Saturday, July 2, 2022 11:25:13 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
There's a thread more than a decade about it from the Atlanta group.

http://www.bloomilk.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=8369

You need to scroll down to echo24's post.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 9:44:01 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
@Hector;
How did you get on with the "Cube Draft" method of re-learning
SWMinis Meta / Era-Specific Game Play?

Were you able to get much from the BoardgameGeek,
VASSAL 'let's plays"
SWMinisPlays' SWMinis Browser version
or TabletopBoardgame Simulator etc?

I think those methods,
like incremental using the game scenarios
from the DeAgostini Mission "magazine"
and, the Starter Sets
goes well with the Gradient Assent / Re-Learning Meta Combinatorics of SWMinis etc.
(Not all of us learn like machines from the Electronic Journal of Combinatorics etc).

I look forward to further discussions about this as the convention seasons ramp up
post the GENCON US etc.
hector
Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2022 10:57:27 PM
Rank: Ugnaught Demolitionist
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/18/2010
Posts: 3
Still enjoying playing with the cube and tweaking it. The challenge is trying to make every character in the cube have a purpose, so it has a chance of being drafted in some situations. Not all characters have to be of similar power level as certain synergies can strengthen weaker characters. Rules like allowing multiple of a trooper to be used in a squad if a single trooper character card is drafted can help. Unfortunately, power creep has hit the cube which was inevitable if more characters were to be added while trying to keep it fairly balanced. Currently there are 130 cards in the cube with 2 people drafting from it. There is a trade off with using more or less cards in the cube. With more cards there is more variety and less chance of getting bored seeing too many of the same characters. With less cards though, synergies can be counted on happening more reliably.

The actual form of drafting with 2 people we are using is a version of a Winston Draft. This allows players to dig deeper for cards they really want for their squad, but in doing so they aid the other player by allowing them to select more cards which gives them more options. I know MTG started the cube drafting format, but I think it is a really neat way to make a contained playing experience for old games in people's collections. On that note I am possibly looking into to making a cube for the X-Wing miniatures game.

I have looked at some scenarios and would be interested in trying some with my brother in the future. I'll take any suggestions on balanced and interesting scenarios.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Thursday, July 28, 2022 7:54:44 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
hector wrote:
Still enjoying playing with the cube and tweaking it. The challenge is trying to make every character in the cube have a purpose, so it has a chance of being drafted in some situations. Not all characters have to be of similar power level as certain synergies can strengthen weaker characters. Rules like allowing multiple of a trooper to be used in a squad if a single trooper character card is drafted can help. Unfortunately, power creep has hit the cube which was inevitable if more characters were to be added while trying to keep it fairly balanced. Currently there are 130 cards in the cube with 2 people drafting from it. There is a trade off with using more or less cards in the cube. With more cards there is more variety and less chance of getting bored seeing too many of the same characters. With less cards though, synergies can be counted on happening more reliably.

The actual form of drafting with 2 people we are using is a version of a Winston Draft. This allows players to dig deeper for cards they really want for their squad, but in doing so they aid the other player by allowing them to select more cards which gives them more options. I know MTG started the cube drafting format, but I think it is a really neat way to make a contained playing experience for old games in people's collections. On that note I am possibly looking into to making a cube for the X-Wing miniatures game.

I have looked at some scenarios and would be interested in trying some with my brother in the future. I'll take any suggestions on balanced and interesting scenarios.


@Hector;
Thankyou for replying with your approaches to "relearning what you have unlearned"
in the SWMinis Cube Draft format.

"We use a version of Winston Draft"
fascinating strategy there; thanks for sharing your strategy for that learning approach.
thanks for suggesting that, as, it can be fun to 'emulate'
using SWMinisPlays, VASSAL, or Tabletop Boardgame Simulator;
I can use a 'chindogu controller', similar to what we use during ' VSETs Playtesting Statistical Distribution in
Wildcard Analysis of Meta-Combinatorics of a pieces likely costing rubrik"
this allows me to try and use the principles of "Qualitative Evaluation in Batch-Testing from Quality Control"
to test out a piece against possible squad combinations it is likely to be used in,
which in turn, is fed back into a 'rubber-banding" "self-attenuation Self Learning Neural Net Model"
which is a kind of babushka multivariate / N'th Multivariate,
which allows us to evaluate the fairness of a piece
without needing MILLIONS of playtesters etc.
If you are interested in these approaches, there are mathematical pre-print papers
in recreational mathematics for HASKELL / AGIXML to be found at
the Electronic Journal of Combinatorics, VIXRA, and my blogs etc.

Yes, that looks familiar because,
that is how Sophia the Gynoid learned to play SWMinis so quickly
in autogenous / multi-factor autonomous mode,
or, something similar and,
I have PaLM Hypothetical Generator from Google Dashboard/ Google Glass
which can also map SWMinis gamestates.... muahahahah.


"I know MTG started these formats"
Indeed, I am a crusty old barnacle who has some ye-olde original 70s Magic The Gathering original sets etc,
and, who, despite having lamented the 'pay-to-play' format in many games,
I was always at the Wizards of the Coast Forums back in the day,
still at the Tabletop boardgame simulator, the BoardgameGeek and here etc,
as well as Lead Adventure and yes, even still at AllScaleTrek (I couldn't stay away,
you could say "resistance was futile" hahahaha)



"I am possibly looking at |Learning Draft-Cube/ Formats for XWING / StarWarsAttackWing and StarTrekAttackWing?|
A: Woohoo, that will be a fun one to watch,
I hope you'll consider a format like Kezzamachine's "Save-20" magazines and their extra formats,
or CeruousMutor, Surf_Rider56 et als,
all the Zombies format SWMinis stuff etc.



"
I have looked at some scenarios and would be interested in trying some with my brother in the future. I'll take any suggestions on balanced and interesting scenarios. "
I recommend the DEAGOSTINI MAGAZINE series, and,
the original SWMinis League Kit Scenarios,
followed by "The Expanded Rule Book 2017" Scenarios from the rulebook, <---- I find myself using these,
and, the gamestates atlas from all previous Regionals and International Tournaments at GenCon, SizeCon etc,

I then recommend checking out Bloomilk's "Customs" threads and VASSAL PLAY
or the wayback archives of Wizards of the Coast forums / Game thread iirc,
those have a lot of specials.
And of course, Save20 Magazine etc,
there are a few podcasts too which cover SWMinis as well.
One day, I would like to see more coverage of SWMinis stuff
at Nebula and Youtube by gamers / the boardgame reviewer / Game-Modder Crowds etc,
I hope we continue to see Exhibition Matches played against folks
who play dynamic duos or 100pt SWMinis on extreme places like
submarines, mountains, and even the ISS! (Yup, they played SWminis there,
auctioned the space-played pieces for charities, which was awesome).

and then, the Gamestate Analysis "Beginner through Advanced"
SWMinis Moves Atlas, which was like the Chess Almanac and Chess Gamestate Compositions Atlas.
This can be used to make "solitaire / single-player model" training scenarios.

I have also modified YODA STORIES / RHEA STORIES to be used for a SWMinis format
VASSAL Scenario Series (Search VASSAL at Github or NexusModsManager and you'll find some mod-files links to Google Dropbox suite of things, there's just a few SurveyMonkey etc surveys to complete and you get
a free download for the files you need and nothing else etc.)
I have also modified
SWMinisPlays Browser-Based 2D-3D Base-Defender Top Down Game,
The Tabletop Boardgame Simulator / SWMinis,
and several other games to include a semblance of this,
based on Stephen Wolfram's original Electronic Journal Of Combinatorics things from Wolfram API/ Wolfram Net.

I have also modified 8bitgamemaker,
GameCreators 12026 Universal DarkBasic
and Texas Instruments TI 80s series graphing calculators etc
to all also make SWMinis as a calculator / "game-toy game" handheld version of
a semblance of SWminis.
Yes, that really is it in Fallout 4's "Pipboy" "game-cart" framework.
Yes, you can really play that from a 'holo-tape' in your 'pip-boy" etc...


Please be advised, all of those are ABSOLUTELY FREE to the end user under
CreativeCommonsAttribution C.C.A. 0.0 ShareAlike-Redistribute-Enhance-Remix frameworks
within the Shareware Alliance stuff, you are only allowed to charge
a minimal archival/establishment fee of not greater than $5USD in the redistributable case to make those,
and that is solely for the printing fee to make the hard-copy manual "telephone book" version of
"Tales From The Brink Virtual-E-Mag; Gamer / Hacker Edition" etc hehehehe.
Yeah, there's a "Books of the Wasteland" "Virtual Edition" of Tales From The Brink
which is nothing but 400 pages of "what if SWMinis had an actual Chess Almanac style book? What would that look like?" etc.

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