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Area effects and moving the original target. Options
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, January 7, 2023 8:53:25 AM
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In my recent game against spry this came up one time.

He grenaded Tulak (who was adjacent to Zannah). He made Tulak roll first, he failed took damage and then teleported away to a new square adjacent to some other guys. We played it that since Zannah was no longer adjacent she no longer had to make a grenades save, and since there were now more characters adjacent that hadn't yet rolled for grenades that they had to make grenade saves.

We think this is correct based on the wording of grenades

Grenades 30 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 30 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11)

and the lawnmower ruling precedents.


gholli69
Posted: Saturday, January 7, 2023 12:57:19 PM
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I am not so sure, Tulaks Sith reflexes only trigger when he takes damage. That would lead me to believe that if he had characters adjacent when he took the damage they would need to make the save not any characters that may be adjacent after he teleports. I am not really familiar with the lawnmower precedents so I cant speak to that aspect.
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, January 7, 2023 2:42:46 PM
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If this is indeed the case then Sith Reflexes is extremely powerful...it makes it so that you have to be extremely careful when targeting Tulak with Missiles or Grenades, because you could end up taking them in the face.

I'm not a rules lawyer, but FWIW, this ruling sounds wrong to me. Aren't all of the targets of the grenade/missile set when the target is declared, similar to how all the targets of a Blaster Barrage are set once the BB is declared?
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, January 7, 2023 3:17:32 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:


I'm not a rules lawyer, but FWIW, this ruling sounds wrong to me. Aren't all of the targets of the grenade/missile set when the target is declared, similar to how all the targets of a Blaster Barrage are set once the BB is declared?


I do not believe so. BB specifically says you declare all targets when you use it. With most area effects, you just choose the target and the others effected are adjacent/within 2/within some other range or have some other condition entirely.

But this is why I asked the question to see if anyone else had a precedent that I (and Laura) could not find to indicate something else.

To my knowledge there has never really been anything that has let the "target" of the grenade (or other area effect) move or be moved during resolution. Or the ones that are available are very cumbersome to actually use or on characters that never see play.
thereisnotry
Posted: Saturday, January 7, 2023 3:59:30 PM
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Ok, I recognize that there's a difference between BB and area effect stuff. I do think that it's a really bad thing for the game if entire area-effect abilities can be re-located because of Sith Reflexes. Would this work for Force Lightning 2, so that Tulak teleports beside 2 enemies, so that Palpatine zaps Tulak and those 2 allies of his, rather than the 3 enemies he originally targeted? Or Splash 10...does Tulak get to move after taking damage so that he's beside several enemies before splash damage is rolled? If this is the case then I think we need a change to Sith Reflexes.
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, January 7, 2023 4:39:20 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Ok, I recognize that there's a difference between BB and area effect stuff. I do think that it's a really bad thing for the game if entire area-effect abilities can be re-located because of Sith Reflexes. Would this work for Force Lightning 2, so that Tulak teleports beside 2 enemies, so that Palpatine zaps Tulak and those 2 allies of his, rather than the 3 enemies he originally targeted? Or Splash 10...does Tulak get to move after taking damage so that he's beside several enemies before splash damage is rolled? If this is the case then I think we need a change to Sith Reflexes.




It makes the choosing of order even more important. So if you are the one with those abilities you will likely start making the other characters roll (or take damage, etc) first. We already have this with area effects when DR E is around. Kill him first so that the other guy doesn't have avoid defeat and such.

I think the new wrinkle here is that the tulak has a very easy way to move around during the resolution of things.
gholli69
Posted: Sunday, January 8, 2023 1:00:26 AM
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urbanjedi wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Ok, I recognize that there's a difference between BB and area effect stuff. I do think that it's a really bad thing for the game if entire area-effect abilities can be re-located because of Sith Reflexes. Would this work for Force Lightning 2, so that Tulak teleports beside 2 enemies, so that Palpatine zaps Tulak and those 2 allies of his, rather than the 3 enemies he originally targeted? Or Splash 10...does Tulak get to move after taking damage so that he's beside several enemies before splash damage is rolled? If this is the case then I think we need a change to Sith Reflexes.




It makes the choosing of order even more important. So if you are the one with those abilities you will likely start making the other characters roll (or take damage, etc) first. We already have this with area effects when DR E is around. Kill him first so that the other guy doesn't have avoid defeat and such.

I think the new wrinkle here is that the tulak has a very easy way to move around during the resolution of things.
.




Ok, but what about as Trevor said lightning where you don't choose order because there isn't a save to make? IMO we need to change Sith reflexes to specifically state that teleporting happens after all damage from the attack/ replaces attack ability is resolved. Yes there may be a precedent about choosing order of resolution, but it would simplify the issue because who in their right mind would ever want their opponent to control who gets targeted by forgetting to resolve Tulak last in an important moment. Simple is better IMO FWIW.
thereisnotry
Posted: Sunday, January 8, 2023 9:12:03 AM
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Exactly. I don't want to win or lose on a technicality, which--let's face it--is what this will be.
Cassus fett
Posted: Monday, January 9, 2023 11:52:27 AM
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Peanut gallery checking in! (Ignore me if I'm a moron).

1.) Once damage is resolved against Tulak (and he teleports) he would no longer be considered a target correct? So then you wouldn't need to factor where he lands and you can move on to whomever was ORIGINALLY beside him. I'm thinking this way based on how it would play based in (loose) reality. If a grenade detonates in front of a group and one guy catches shrapnel, then teleports, that doesn't stop the other guys by him from catching their share of the shrapnel right? Meanwhile, who cares about the guy who end up near the teleporter post 'port? They were no where near the original grenade.

2.) Quoting gholli69 "Ok, but what about as Trevor said lightning where you don't choose order because there isn't a save to make? IMO we need to change Sith reflexes to specifically state that teleporting happens after all damage from the attack/ replaces attack ability is resolved. Yes there may be a precedent about choosing order of resolution, but it would simplify the issue because who in their right mind would ever want their opponent to control who gets targeted by forgetting to resolve Tulak last in an important moment. Simple is better IMO FWIW."
- I agree with this.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, January 9, 2023 2:59:53 PM
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Of course it should be damage to everyone first, then teleport away and resolve whatever else needs to be resolved.

Anything else is stupid. "Precedent" on other rules... who cares. Just make it a glossary definition for the SA.

Chargers
Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2023 4:15:10 AM
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No quick access to a rulebook at the moment nor do I see it stickied in the Rules section.

Please remind me as I'm second-guessing: What is the order of steps in an attack?
gandalfthegreatestwizard
Posted: Thursday, January 19, 2023 4:29:27 AM
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gartogg
Posted: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 4:11:30 AM
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Certainly no expert here, but my thinking would be that the characters originally adjacent to Tulak would still have to make the save.
This is purely based on the fact that if Tulak was first to save and failed, and he had 30 or less Hit Points remaining and was therefore defeated, all adjacent characters would still have to save.
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